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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Witch ‘thrown off druid training course’ in trans row

153 replies

OhBuggerandArse · 30/05/2025 20:50

This is a story with a bit of everything (not making light of it, sounds like Angela had the usual gruelling time in the face of typical TRA shenanigans, but the range of incidental detail is.... pretty extra).

https://archive.is/6goQB

OP posts:
Kalithoscope · 31/05/2025 10:28

(Not to say I support the BDO in this, I don't.)

ThymeSageRosemary · 31/05/2025 10:28

I have followed this for sometime on FB and saw the original posts from inside the groups. I think the huge disappointment for me is the lack of genuine wisdom shown by Pagan leaders and the missed opportunity to bring people together and encourage listening and understanding, instead of adopting the 'no debate' approach.

This could have been an exceptional showcase of Pagan diversity; upholding the capacity for all views to be on the table, for reasoned debate and philosophy; for embodying the qualities of reason, compassion, conflict resolution, and peace-building that I would expect from people that call themselves druids, priests or leaders. Instead there is shutting down and banning of divergent views, exclusion rather than inclusion, knee-jerk reactiveness, and the kind of thoughtlessness that comes from following a crowd rather than genuinely engaging with an issue. It shows a lack of expertise for community building, because any community is going to contain all kinds of diverse and divergent viewpoints. There is absolutely no indication that these leaders are capable of holding a community in its compexity. Extremely disappointing.

SionnachRuadh · 31/05/2025 10:39

I've only got a partial view of this through friends, but I also think there's an element of ageing leaders thinking that queer identity is where the youngsters are at, so that's where they need to position themselves.

Maybe part of this is that the youngsters who want to learn and to acquire a spiritual discipline tend to be quieter, so the blue fringes get amplified far beyond how representative they really are.

Fhjiutwafhmbcff · 31/05/2025 10:43

Enough4me · 31/05/2025 00:21

I'm impressed by your courage.
I haven't read the full article yet, but could you start a new group to be inclusive for believers in sex?
(I don't think you should have to but Moma have started as LaLeche was taken over by men's rights activists and will likely become more popular).

Men's Demands activists.

Gettingbysomehow · 31/05/2025 10:46

I've been an Alexandrian HPS for years and long ago pulled out of public paganism of any kind. Like most of the other elders.we know where we all are, few others do. I fail to see what are basically nature/fertility cults need from such organisations. All we need are our own people not commitees. In my particular tradition public events and socialising outside craft is very much frowned upon. We don't need our rights protecting because outsiders don't know who we are in the first place. Nobody at work or non witch friends would know what we do anyway.
I'd keep it that way. Starting all these public organisations is a recipe for disaster.

MyBirthdayMonth · 31/05/2025 10:52

Hoppinggreen · 31/05/2025 10:22

Why do they always "weep" rather than just cry?

It sounds more dignified. It's what you do beside the waters of Babylon. Blubbering on the bus just does not have the same literary and religious overtones.

SionnachRuadh · 31/05/2025 10:54

MyBirthdayMonth · 31/05/2025 10:52

It sounds more dignified. It's what you do beside the waters of Babylon. Blubbering on the bus just does not have the same literary and religious overtones.

Also, weeping beside the waters of Babylon is the natural response when the Supreme Court says you are not, in fact, Russia's greatest love machine.

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 31/05/2025 10:57

thiswilloutme · 31/05/2025 10:18

I knew Paganism had been heavily infiltrated when I found out Starhawk had fallen for the queer/trans narrative….

Not even slightly surprised. This from the woman claiming to be "arrested for being a witch" when in reality she was arrested for doing readings without the correct licence.
Was always so disappointed that Doreen Valiente bought into her spiel so strongly and thought she was the future.

As for the PF, their Facebook page is very aggressively managed and when the SC ruling was posted about a couple of weeks ago, every second post was a mad moderator with a Hitler complex saying "don't worry we've removed the post and banned the transphobe" to much liking and spewing. I blocked them after that. Not that I ever had much to do with the PF as in my area it was well known amongst pagans that the local Moot was where creepy older men went to pick up young naive women and everyone in the area that I knew from CoA warned against our local PF Moot.

They're literally leading a witch hunt on people and the irony is not lost on me.

God I miss CoA it was a much better group for witchy people to come together.

SwordOfOmens · 31/05/2025 11:03

Hoppinggreen · 31/05/2025 10:22

Why do they always "weep" rather than just cry?

Magic tears that can wake up sleeping maidens, turn beasts back into men, or turn men into women?

MarieDeGournay · 31/05/2025 11:41

SionnachRuadh · 31/05/2025 10:54

Also, weeping beside the waters of Babylon is the natural response when the Supreme Court says you are not, in fact, Russia's greatest love machine.

Sionnach and MyBirthdayMonth, you have given me a good laugh, and I didn't think there were any laughs to be had on this topic, so thank you😂😂

TonTonMacoute · 31/05/2025 11:52

@SwordOfOmens

Ah, the infallible 'No Debate' line! It's pretty much an admission that they cannot win the argument.

Well done to you for standing up to these bullies. The fact that you have had to face this in a group that you turned to to find support and strength is truly depressing.

I hope it helps you to know that the vast majority of people are on your side. Hope this insanity ends soon.

TheOtherRaven · 31/05/2025 11:53

ArabellaScott · 30/05/2025 21:13

https://www.druidry.co.uk/bdolgbtqprideagainstprejudice/

Well, I read this, from the founder of the BDO:

'In a triumph for bigotry, on April 16th, the UK supreme court quashed the Scottish government’s attempt to legislate in favour of the human rights of transgender people in Scotland by essentially following Donald Trump’s lead. Before coming to the unanimous decision that only one’s ‘biological sex’ at birth has any status under law and that, therefore, trans women are not women at all, the court took ‘evidence’ from several anti-trans groups but never heard a single word from a trans woman or man. Although aimed at Scotland in particular, this ruling covers the whole of the UK.
Judge, Lord Hodge, said the ruling “should not be seen as a triumph of one side over the other” and stressed that the law still gives protection against discrimination to transgender people. He is either a fool or a liar, since the ruling quite clearly drives a coach and horses through all previous legislation that granted rights to the trans community. It means, for example, that trans women will now face the humiliation of having to use male toilets in public places. Trans women who are abused by their partners will no longer be able to access women’s refuges to keep them safe from harm. Trans women will be strip searched by male police officers. And so on and on.'

And then this ...

'... the ruling has been greeted with triumphant celebration by anti-trans activists and with tears and despair by the trans community. My own daughter wept on the bus on her way to work after the ruling was announced. She is one of the nicest, most sensitive, gentle souls I know and already has to negotiate other people’s ignorance and intolerance on a daily basis. She is, I should add, one of the ‘front-line workers’ we all cheered for at the height of the Covid pandemic. Now the UK legislature has made a ruling that effectively renders her a non-person in all public spaces.'

and all becomes clear.

Ah. There it is.

Yes dear of course mummy won't let those nasty women or homosexual people have legal rights and equalities that make you cry.

Let's just hope you don't want to detransition at any point in the future and find that actually having lost those rights now impacts you as well as all the rest of your sex class that at the time we didn't care about.

LonginesPrime · 31/05/2025 11:56

TheAutumnCrow · 31/05/2025 03:46

Nothing says ‘mystique of the summer solstice at Stonehenge’ more than a robust pagan internal complaints procedure.

Run by Bureaucratix and his adjunct clerk, Appendix.

GrinGrin

PrettyDamnCosmic · 31/05/2025 11:57

TheOtherRaven · 31/05/2025 11:53

Ah. There it is.

Yes dear of course mummy won't let those nasty women or homosexual people have legal rights and equalities that make you cry.

Let's just hope you don't want to detransition at any point in the future and find that actually having lost those rights now impacts you as well as all the rest of your sex class that at the time we didn't care about.

I think that her tearful "daughter" is a male.

TonTonMacoute · 31/05/2025 12:02

What's not clear to me, even after all this time, is why this particular ideology has gained such a firm grasp on so many organisations and governments all over the world in such a short space of time. Is it all down to misogyny or something else.

Exactly this. It's completely insane. The NHS is the most worrying example. How can the organisation in charge of the nation's health not accept the fact of biological sex!?

A friend of mine who is a biologist (an expert in her field) said she couldn't believe that The University of Cambridge biology department, her alma mater, was seriously considering acknowledging that there was no such thing as biological sex.

The degree and depth of capture is unreal, and I still can't decide if it's deeply sinister or the greatest delusion since the Wizard of Oz.
(That's is not intended as a joke at the expense of Angela Howard, I just think the denouement of WoO is a good analogy).

MarieDeGournay · 31/05/2025 12:02

TheAutumnCrow · 31/05/2025 03:46

Nothing says ‘mystique of the summer solstice at Stonehenge’ more than a robust pagan internal complaints procedure.

Run by Bureaucratix and his adjunct clerk, Appendix.

The Astérix and Obélix books have a firmer grasp on Druidism than the BDO😠

LonginesPrime · 31/05/2025 12:06

OldCrone · 31/05/2025 09:41

Gender ideology is almost always imposed top down, against the wishes/views of the majority.

Astroturfing. It's an ideology which has been imposed top-down, but made to look like a grassroots movement.

Inauthentic Selves: The modern LGBTQ+ Movement Is Run By Philanthropic Astroturf And Based On Junk…

What's not clear to me, even after all this time, is why this particular ideology has gained such a firm grasp on so many organisations and governments all over the world in such a short space of time. Is it all down to misogyny or something else?

For orgs where the leaders have been so taken in that they’ve transitioned their own children (or encouraged their adult children to transition), it’s clear they have no way of changing their messaging without admitting they monumentally fucked up as a parent.

I should imagine it would be so difficult to face the reality of that situation that they’re likely in a genuine state of denial to protect their own mental wellbeing - how could a parent face up to the truth after that?

SwordOfOmens · 31/05/2025 12:15

LonginesPrime · 31/05/2025 12:06

For orgs where the leaders have been so taken in that they’ve transitioned their own children (or encouraged their adult children to transition), it’s clear they have no way of changing their messaging without admitting they monumentally fucked up as a parent.

I should imagine it would be so difficult to face the reality of that situation that they’re likely in a genuine state of denial to protect their own mental wellbeing - how could a parent face up to the truth after that?

With courage and integrity. Words they are supposed to live by

ArabellaScott · 31/05/2025 12:25

PrettyDamnCosmic · 31/05/2025 11:57

I think that her tearful "daughter" is a male.

His weeping son. (Son identifies as trans).

This is a father defending his son against all the nasty women.

ArabellaScott · 31/05/2025 12:30

ThymeSageRosemary · 31/05/2025 10:28

I have followed this for sometime on FB and saw the original posts from inside the groups. I think the huge disappointment for me is the lack of genuine wisdom shown by Pagan leaders and the missed opportunity to bring people together and encourage listening and understanding, instead of adopting the 'no debate' approach.

This could have been an exceptional showcase of Pagan diversity; upholding the capacity for all views to be on the table, for reasoned debate and philosophy; for embodying the qualities of reason, compassion, conflict resolution, and peace-building that I would expect from people that call themselves druids, priests or leaders. Instead there is shutting down and banning of divergent views, exclusion rather than inclusion, knee-jerk reactiveness, and the kind of thoughtlessness that comes from following a crowd rather than genuinely engaging with an issue. It shows a lack of expertise for community building, because any community is going to contain all kinds of diverse and divergent viewpoints. There is absolutely no indication that these leaders are capable of holding a community in its compexity. Extremely disappointing.

The two comments that remain up on the facebook post that are even handed are very reasoned, compassionate, thoughtful and engaging. I'll copy paste.

'I am sorry to hear this attitude of “this is not up for debate” regarding one of the most delicate and contentious issues our society faces right now.
I run a Pagan group myself. I consider it the perfect place to chat and talk about contentious issues, in a safe space with people who trust each other. In my group, we’ve had trans Pagans, non-binary Pagans and Pagans who are concerned about the implications of basing public policy on gender identity, rather than biological sex. Everyone in the group has spoken respectfully, disagreed amicably, and come away with a better understanding of each other’s differing views. That’s what community is all about.
I am saddened that Pagan Federation is taking increasingly hardline political stances on issues that aren’t to do with Paganism, despite the diversity of political and philosophical opinions which exist in our movement: a movement which has long prided itself on freedom of thought and freedom of conscience. What will it be next? Will PF expect its members to have the same views on Israel-Palestine, free speech, and Brexit, for example?
PF has made it clear in the comments that it expects members who don’t toe its line to leave. It is therefore with a heavy heart that I have decided I will not renew my membership this year. I cannot in good conscience remain a member of an organisation that will not tolerate different views on political issues which have little to do with Paganism. I am very sad to make this decision because I think PF is special and has done great work promoting the interests of Pagans from all walks of life. But I don’t think I am the kind of Pagan that PF wants anymore.'

'I don’t think paganism has anything to do with sex or self identifying. The pagan federation is to support ALL faiths . The fact that some of us are women, men, gay, transgender and so on is just the way it is.
The Supreme Court ruling was NOT against the trans community , it was about defining a woman, it wasn’t about taking rights away from anyone it was move to answer a large section of society who are bewildered and upset and want women’s rights and protections. If an organisation like the PF cannot see that and is now forcing the issue (again what caused problems in the first instance) it’s for shame and will cause division.
Trans rights are rights and should be upheld but not at the cost of another section of society. Forcing a section of society upon another, which causes them upset/distress/fear and confusion doesn’t seem ok and simply saying ‘they shouldn’t feel’ that way is not good enough. It doesn’t make haters, it’s something to be addressed.
Imagine being a pagan in a room full of Christian’s how awkward could you feel and should you be forced to accept their ways of worship even though it doesn’t fit with you? Does that make you a Christian hater?
I see a lot of people calling women, trans phobes and while there’s no doubt in my mind some are, the majority aren’t. In today’s society many, women have been subjected to abuse of one kind or many that does something to you, why should women be forced to feel anxious or scared. It’s not even down to the trans person it’s a statement of mind/emotion it’s a physiological issue.
I’m sure that anyone with an inkling or any compassion in them would not force themselves upon someone who feels that way simple because they think it’s fine.
So for shame PF you are hurting a section of your members . Of course trans people have rights of course gays have rights of course individuals have rights to live as they wish as long as it harms none but that includes women too, the abused, the fearful, the lost and scared. You are now causing division in the PF where there was none by your threatening statement.'

MrsOvertonsWindow · 31/05/2025 12:54

As ever, this ideology trashes and burns every single institution it touches. There's no empathy, respect for others or even a scintilla of appreciation of the rights of women and girls or the need to safeguard children.

It's quite a sight to behold in an allegedly democratic society.

TeiTetua · 31/05/2025 13:14

I'm sorry, someone says "Druid training course" and I can't help responding with chortles. It's an idea that Monty Python never thought of doing!

So they're a bunch of sexists, though one confident guess is that the real Druids were too. We've got enough nonsense of our own without making up stuff and claiming it's 2000 years old. Join the Woodcraft Folk instead.

ArabellaScott · 31/05/2025 13:49

The Woodcraft Folk have had a bit of a dubious history wrt 'gender'. There's been discussion on here.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3947970-Woodcraft-folk

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4220299-FFS-Woodcraft-Folk

https://x.com/djandyhealey/status/1275387597167177728?s=21

However, they seem to have recently removed any mention of 'trans' from their website.

https://woodcraft.org.uk/trans-inclusion

OuterSpaceCadet · 31/05/2025 14:02

Is it a countryside thing? My observation is that my friends brought up in big cities are far less likely to be gender believers than those from small towns and the countryside. I wondered whether city people have had to think more deeply about safeguarding? I know I had more experience of male pattern violence growing up than my countryside friends.

TheAutumnCrow · 31/05/2025 14:07

TomPinch · 31/05/2025 10:03

Who in turn are overseen by Performancemetrix.

Last time I saw him, he was trying to rub wormwood balm into Sexitantrix with a very odd look about him.