FFS Woodcraft Folk

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

This is entirely expected of them but:

(Excerpts - I will link to docs at end so people can check my selective quoting)

From Trans Inclusion Q&A

1. Should I use the term ‘the gender identity they were born with?'

Newborn babies lack the communication skills to tell us what their gender identity is,
therefore doctors assign a child a sex/gender on the basis of, usually, external genitalia.

1. What is the difference between gender expression and gender identity?

Gender is commonly used to refer to many different elements which can cause confusion.
Gender identity is part of what makes up gender: it is what we understand our own identity to be. Gender expression is another part and refers to how some of the ways we dress,
behave or decorate our bodies are seen as being aligned to a particular gender within a
certain culture. For example in some cultures the wearing of a long and flowing single piece
of clothing may variously be seen as feminine, masculine or not gendered at all. As such there is not necessarily an alignment between gender expression and gender identity.

Gender is also sometimes used as an equivalent to sex in legal terms. Sex/legal gender is the legal recognition given to this part of your identity, and currently in the UK this is
recorded in one of two categories: male or female. Usually this is declared on a birth
certificate based on the judgement of a doctor based on your external genitalia, or may be
recognised through a Gender Recognition Certificate for those who have undertaken a legal process to recognise that their gender identity is not the one assigned at birth.
Sex refers to a combination of physical and biological characteristics such as external and
internal genitalia, chromosomes and hormone levels. There are many variations in the
combinations of these, though usually medical practitioners seek to divide individuals into
one of three categories: female, intersex and male. Trans adults may choose to undergo a
medical transition which might include surgery or hormones to change some of the elements
which make up their biological sex. For trans children and young people in the UK currently,
the only medical intervention available to them is puberty blockers - medicine which
temporarily prevents the progression of puberty and the changes to genitalia and hormones
which develop during this phase of development.

[Followed, of course, by the gender unicorn]

1. Should I tell parents if their child is sharing a room with a trans child?

If you disclose an individual’s trans identity without their consent you could be breaking the
law. You should be open with parents/guardians about the sleeping arrangements at camp
e.g. whether it is in small or large tents, large dorms, small rooms or a shared hall, and
explain how you have involved the children in making these decisions. You should make it clear to parents/guardians that children will be sharing based on who they feel comfortable
to share a room or tent with.

1. Should I tell parents that their child is in a mixed gender dorm?

You should be open with parents/guardians about the sleeping arrangements at camp e.g.
whether it is in small or large tents, large dorms, small rooms or a shared hall, and explain
how you have involved the children in making these decisions. You should make it clear to
parents/guardians that children will be sharing based on who they feel comfortable to share
a room or tent with.

From here:
woodcraft.org.uk/trans-inclusion

Trans inclusion and the law
woodcraft.org.uk/trans-inclusion
(Excerpts again)

There are no issues under child protection or safeguarding law or practice specific to trans children and young people aside from what is in place to keep all children and young people safe. For example, there is nothing that would prohibit trans children and young people using the changing rooms or toilets which reflect their gender identity.

You should however be mindful that a trans child or young person is vulnerable and may experience transphobic bullying, abuse, or violence. Particular care should be taken to support trans children and young people when accessing changing rooms or toilets which are also accessible to other groups or members of the public e.g. at a swimming pool or public toilets when out on a walk.

There is an unfounded fear that trans children will abuse other children, there is no evidence to suggest that this is the case. Woodcraft Folk has not received any disclosures of abuse perpetrated by trans children or young people against non-trans participants.

[Is it just me or is this final paragraph rather odd?]

When I was in the scouts we had boys tents and girls tents.
That last paragraph doesn't seem odd to me, but then I have just finished reading a thread about a 12 year old trans person abusing a five year old.
If you have a child in woodcraft I'd withdraw them and let the other parents know why.

That last paragraph smacks of 'we've never been officially told this has happened.' Leaving lots of room for all sorts of things they'd prefer to forget. Call me cynical.

I think I thought it sounded like that unless there were any issues specifically within WCF they wouldn't care, which is an unusual way of approaching safeguarding.

It's like a parody isn't it? except for the little matter of safeguarding.

Given that much of this stuff is pretty new policy wise, I'm nor surprised they haven't had trans kids be abusive to other kids. It's not terribly common for that sort of thing to ever be a problem among any kids.

But you have to be pretty dense to not see that sometimes kids do abuse each other, or sometimes even have exploratory sexual activity between them, especially as they get into adolescence - and none of these things are really what you want going on at camp.

It only needs to happen once to be a problem, and while it's not possible to remove all risk seperate sexed sleeping makes a lot of sense.

Crikey, I'd certainly would stop my children doing that. They clearly don't have a clue about safeguarding.

2019 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3533593-Woodcraft-Folk-and-trans-inclusivity

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3726306-Woodcraft-Folk-statement

2020 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3816326-woodcraft-and-gender

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3678116-Woodcraft-Folk-A-letter-in-support-of-Trans-Inclusion

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3947970-Woodcraft-folk

There is an unfounded fear that trans children will abuse other children
Yes it is odd as the fear is that children will abuse other children, and that is very well founded!

All this stuff about how safeguarding just need not apply to this extra special, extra sensitive group who are all about magical glittery unicorns is so much shite.

R0wantrees

Your indexing skills are incredible!

Woodcraft folk have always been super sort of touchy feely hippy type thing.

They've also always been mixed (well since at least the 70s when my friend went!).

It sounds like they have had mixed tents at camps anyway (?) and I'm not surprised.

Some of the posts on this thread I feel uncomfy with.

In single sex situations abuse of various types can occur. Including sexual abuse (more prevalent among boys but that's an assumption).

As woodcraft have been mixed for years I'd imagine they'd have pretty well thought out policies.

The thing that I'd be more concerned about was consensual sex tbh. And actually thinking about that, that's only because of the risk of pregnancy. As obviously in single sex arrangements consensual sex can happen.

The bit I do find odd (and comes up a lot) is this sort of thing:

'Usually this is declared on a birth
certificate based on the judgement of a doctor based on your external genitalia'

What if it's a midwife?
If you give birth without medical people (too sudden to get to hosp) then no one knows if it's sex? They need a trained professional to tell them?
And in the places where there's little access to midwives etc. All those babies could be male or female, no one knows?

Do these people even think about what they're saying? It's just. Silly tbh. And loads of orgs say this sort of stuff.

You should make it clear to
parents/guardians that children will be sharing based on who they feel comfortable to share
a room or tent with and if they say they don't want to share with someone of the opposite sex, are they re-educated or asked to leave?

I went to Woodcraft as a kid in the 80s and it was normal to have mixed sex tents and dorms. Whatever your views on it, in this instance it isn't due to gender ID ideology.

The pushing of destructive ideology is very depressing though. There are gender critical people in Woodies, but they're obviously losing.

NiceGerbil I always think people who write stuff like that have never been at the birth of a child and have never been to register a birth either.

With WCF they always do mixed and the main risk is not to do with trans rights and GC issues but very underage consensual sex. I'd never heard of WCF until uni, when I met three girls who had all lost their virginity v young on camp. Different parts of the country. No abuse involved but incredibly liberal attitudes to teen sex.

In a way it's the liberalness that concerns me. It's very exclusionary for kids who dont feel able to speak up and say they are uncomfortable sharing sleeping / washing / toileting with the opposite sex,.or for kids whose parents wouldn't let them for whatever the reason.

The problem with the trans inclusion stuff is that it then actually denies that the sexes are being mixed which makes it even harder for girls in the organisation to express their discomfort.

I’ve been involved with WCF for a few years and in my experience all the sleeping arrangements at camps and hostels have been single sex - separate tents / dorms for boys and girls.

However this guidance suggests that they might not stick to this if there was a trans child. Which is depressing and irresponsible. I hope people would exercise common sense in practice but there’s no guarantee.

Newborn babies lack the communication skills to tell us what their gender identity is,
therefore doctors assign a child a sex/gender on the basis of, usually, external genitalia.

What the actual fuck.

If you disclose an individual’s trans identity without their consent you could be breaking the
law.

That's for people who have GRC, not for children. It might upset them and the parents but I don't think any laws can be broken.

There are so many inconsistencies in the policy that my head can't cope.

Reading again that also puts gender id as more important than and superseding biology.

The baby can't tell us and so we guess and make do until they can.

@NiceGerbil

Reading again that also puts gender id as more important than and superseding biology.

The baby can't tell us and so we guess and make do until they can.

It's the idea that babies have a gender identity. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

What the actual fuck.

@WarOnWomen

Newborn babies lack the communication skills to tell us what their gender identity is, therefore doctors assign a child a sex/gender on the basis of, usually, external genitalia.

What the actual fuck.

"on the basis of, usually, external genitalia.".

Got to laugh.
As opposed to what? Internal genitalia?

As opposed to what? Internal genitalia?

I may be mistaken but think this was them referencing intersex. The usually, I mean.