Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

[loveyouradvice]

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

that you quoted but were unable to respond to any of @akkakk excellent points just shows what bad faith you are here under.

You are male. You will always be male. Clearly you don't like that and it brings you great pain and I have ALL the sympathy for that. But society has (parts of it) lied to you. You cannot change sex. you are 100% as male now as you ever have been. You will never, ever be the slightest bit female, because sex is immutable

You don't need conversion therapy - you need therapy to accept and understand the realities of life.

To paraphrase the great Stoics -

you have to play the hand you are dealt.

Actually, I did try pictures, back before I decided to transition! I pulled out the pictures I had of myself as a kid - and immediately was overcome with the feeling that I was looking at a little boy masquerading as a girl. It was very intense and very pervasive. And the pictures of me with longer hair, when I'm very small, feel so wrong, because I can't help seeing the little girl I was supposed to be, but never actually was.

Friends, no. We've lost sight of each other through various long-distance moves. Not sure what they could tell me that wouldn't reinforce my feelings, though? My best male friend would talk about how we did all the same things, starting with playfighting as various (always male) TV heroes. My one good female friend from those years already chided me at the time for not being feminine enough, so...

Clustering is indicative of social contagion.

Innateness doesn't tend to lead to clustering in the same way.

Do you understand that women are real people? With vastly different anatomy to you? Much more complicated. Creating different experiences, different needs.

Anatomy and biology which has historically been used to control them, and is the basis for an awful lot of problems, issues, and yes good things too, for a significant number of women.

Can you understand that women's existence is something complete in its own right, with a million different aspects that you could have no concept of.

Not a treatment to be utilised by you because you have mental health issues over your male body.

The concept and very existence of women is not therapy. It's not a balm for your feelings. It's not a 'solution' to your specifically male issue.

That you wanting to be a woman in absolutely no way contributes to the progression, advancement and safety of women. It does the opposite.

You are signalling to yourself, and everyone else, that you believe you wanting to be a woman is something that should be accommodated and pursued by their appropriation.

Do you never see the rank sexism underpinning transgenderism?

Women don't exist to fulfil your requirements.

Got it. Thanks for answering

This seems timely.

Readers Note: No male person can ever live or experience life as a 'woman.' They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic when you unpick it!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way. But based on their own reaction developed over years of them reacting to the way they interact with society and themselves and how others interact with them while having a male body and a mind that processes stimuli in that male body.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is. They are still processing stimuli and making decisions based on the way they interact with society and themselves and how others interact with them while having a male body.

How can it be any other way?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid. But apparently, we should just let these male people into female single sex spaces.

"the little girl I was supposed to be"

This is very interesting. Exactly how is 'supposed to be' here? there is no supposed to be. we live in a very very large random universe. Nobody is driving.

Seriously, changing secondary sex characteristics, or even primary sex characteristics does not make any male person a 'woman'.

It makes them a male person who has had some extreme body modifications.

I agree, it's a weird sentence 😅What I meant was: "the little girl I was supposed to be mentally because I was a little girl biologically".

It's weird, mind you: when I look at those pics of me as a toddler with long hair, I feel like I'm letting the world down by failing to identify with my sex. I feel like the little girl in the pictures is failing to take a step she should have taken at some point. And what's weird is that I don't feel the same for the girl in pictures taken a couple of years later. It's specifically for the toddler age. Hmm... 🤔

That is odd! So the 3 year old looks wrong to you in a way the 5 year old doesn't? How fascinating. Did anything change in your life/family set up between those points? I don't mean to be intrusive, just wondering out loud as it were.

Are you saying the tissue is natural and female? Whaich bit of the post was wrong?

I think we're all wondering.

And none of us want to be intrusive. But it is interesting, especially as seethlaw is happy to talk, doesn't lie, and doesn't have an agenda

And disagreeing with the above is 'conversion therapy' and 'torture'.

No, sometimes life isn't fair and you have to hear and except things you don't want to and don't like.

And this isn't transphobic. This is reality.

The abject sexism and the attitude that women MUST accept this is appalling.

It's fantasy. Its delusional.

I'm not fucking doing it, and I'm not going to be abused for refusing to be treated as lesser beings who are just there to serve men who don't feel masculine.

It's tough shit.

The answer is still no.

Mummy says no to the tantruming toddlers because she knows feeding them nothing but ice cream is bad for them and only solves the tantrum for two minutes before they decide they want more and tantrum even more.

Period pain, chances of getting pre-eclampsia in pregnancy, fertility, breast feeding, likelihood of getting endometriosis or a female specific cancer - it would be a lot easier if it these things were related to, or controlled by the mind, but they just aren’t.

We classify sex because of the impact of all these things, regardless of what is happening in anyone’s mind.

I don’t know how you would even begin to think that you could align your sex with your mind. It seems like trying to align your blood type or long or short sightedness.

Going back to the OP, no I don’t think this will be behind us while so many people are oblivious to what sex is.

it’s that phrase “identify with” that gets me.

we are so bombarded with visual imagery of other people that do conform, and from an early age, I think kids absorb it and can be badly affected at a very young age.

it’s not them that are the “issue.” It’s social pressures and expectations which are wholly dependent on cultural ideals

Well, the most obvious one is that my sister was born. And now that I think about it, I do remember from a few years later on (8 or 9) until my adulthood, that I was aware that we had a skewed family relationship, with an immature mother, a child (my sister), and me in the father's place - albeit an impotent, always guilty father.

So it's very possible that the circumstances around my sister's birth relieved me from the burden of having to be a girl, and instead encouraged me to be a boy. Or it's even possible that they entirely created this boy identity and I'm retroactively applying it to the toddler I was - though I would think that 4.5 years of age is too late to effect such a change, but when I see what I agreed to in later years, it doesn't feel so impossible at all...

The do know what sex is though. They know exactly the people to scold. They know exactly the groups to target and how to reduce access to healthcare initiatives to make women's health come closer to quality for me. They know to erase the word woman and replace with body parts references all whilst calling us obsessed with gentils.

Do not be fooled by this shit.

Even the 'i don't feel like a man' is fuelled by toxic masculinity and sexism.

It's all it is. Nothing more nothing less.

You literally can't define being trans gender without reference to sexist gender stereotypes. It is impossible. We are yet to see anyone get close.

Thank you for sharing that. I admire your clarity of perception re your childhood and family dynamics (again, don't answer if you don't wish to, but did you arrive there by yourself or through therapy? As someone currently dealing with family issues, I've been pondering therapy myself). It does seem as if either could be possible but I'd be leaning towards you being put in the 'manly' role once another girl arrived.

You seem to be happy now, as far as I can see, and that is impressive given what you've said, and I wish you well.

This is interesting as I'd be questioning who told you you had to be a certain way and a certain thing, who are you disappointing or letting down.

thats the sort of therapy that I think people with these problems should be looking at, wonder where it all comes from.

Same.

even the lift of an eyebrow, and a brief expression can have a profound effect on a child.

So God knows what a sustained period of a certain attitude would result in.

edited to add that, in my opinion, the sexism the underlines transgenderism is a large part of its success.

Sexism seems very real to some people. It makes sense, because they see it manifesting in real life. They believe it. Boys do this, girls do that.

We're raised with it. It's everywhere.

it's hard to truly believe it's not based on facts somewhere.

Until you do. And then it's fricken obvious!

I’m glad therapy helped you. Not immediately rushing to affirm young people who think they might be trans isnt conversion therapy. Therapy should allow someone to explore and understand their feelings from a position of neutrality, not the affirmation only approach. Most young people thinking they might be trans, have other issues that should be explored first.

To be fair, I think that applies to a lot of parent/child relationships, the expectation to be academic, sporty, musical etc. Some parents undo the pre conceived boxes better than others.

And to add that it has translated to this thread.

The male trans people try to force women into agreement through saying they'll have a bad reaction if we don't. They're afraid, they're annihilated, they're detonated, etc. Unless you do what they say.

And the person who undermines and defies them the most is seethlaw. A transman who has all the inside gen.

And who even went so far as to predict what would happen. And it did.

Seethlaw must be discredited at all costs. It's just a haircut, or a way of currying favour, being a 'pet' and actually lying more than most trans people!! 😁

No wonder so many women don't hang out in trans spaces.

Every description I’ve ever read that was written by a homosexual man who medically transitioned mentioned a bullying parent. They always mentioned it as “proof they really were trans,” as they had gone through that and still transitioned.

It never seemed to cross their minds that being bullied for behaviours deemed as feminine during the time their personality was forming and as they learned about themselves and where they fit into the world might actually be the reason they had reached the wrong conclusion about what sex they ought to have been.

Nobody can say they were born with those feelings. Nobody can remember those formative early years. They may well have started behaving in ways their parents didn’t like before they understood their place in the world. My GNC daughter refused feminine clothing from age two or earlier. Jackie Green’s case is classic, as described by the mother who watched it all and failed to defend her child from a homophobic father.

My brother was bullied terribly. As was his classmate.

The boy in the same class who bullied them, killed himself in his late twenties.