just checking - since the SC there is no such thing as misgendering on Mumsnet? Or is there??

[loveyouradvice]

Just checking we can refer to TIM as he now? I think so... The deeply admirable Helen Joyce does and I share her rationale...

Goes all the way back to the sublime Pronouns are rohypnol from a much loved mums netter...

But you don't have to say anything you don't want to say.
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They're a colleague who you only know at work. You meet them several times a week but you don't share an office, chitchat, or socialise with them. They look obviously female trying to present as male.

Would you agree to call them Arthur?
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And yet, they do.

So again back to the sentences. Unless you know the backstory well, and have established the facts yourself, seeing the sentence:

”Some people believe that this woman should not be competing in the female boxing category as they are too powerful.”

is not clear at all. They have to go and seek further information to work out the relevance of why that person is being singled out.

I notice though you ignored the other sentence pair completely as it highlights the obfuscation that you are saying people should settle with:

“They should not be allowed to use the female single sex space.”

instead of

"He should not be allowed to use the female single sex space"

The Sandie Peggie case was a case of clarity because the language used by Naomi Cunningham was very clear and rather precise. 'They' would have kept it confusing and people would still be feeling comfortable that a male doctor was demanding to use the female changing room.

Using 'they' instead of correct sex pronouns obfuscates the message being conveyed unless there is a depth of knowledge about who the people are that are being discussed. And using 'they' allows some people to stay in their zone of comfort.

That is entirely theoretical.....I refer to my previous response.

But the request itself is a behaviour. A behaviour with a political motivation.

It is not normalised at all. You seem to be rather confused in your view.

The young people, mostly in the arts, that I come across every day even in my own home use 'they' purposefully. They don't use it to avoid offending someone. They will use it because they are part of a diminishing group who believe in gender identity and use it for themselves or their NB friends.

It tells me that you have EITHER never read the word as opposed to hearing it used in discussions, which implies a level of mental laziness, OR that you have read it and have blocked out the female component as trivial and unimportant, and imposed the maleness-conveying word instead, since maleness is important.

If you describe yourself as androgynous you are saying that you have female and male aspects.

If you describe yourself as androgenous you are implying you are full of male hormones.

As I said, telling. And what it tells is that you despise the female.

I've known lots of people with either neutral or gendered names 'contrary' to the expectations of their sex. It is nothing revolutionary.

My daughter is a teacher.........after the lockdown one year 9 girl came back to school and asked everyone to cal her 'Gizmo'. Funny, but true story!

You seem to think that acting partially to comply to a language demand is not partially complying to a language demand.

Please explain how using 'they' is in no way complying to the language demand that supports someone else's philosophical belief?

No, I'm saying nobody can stop you saying exactly what you want to say. If you personally don't want to use"they" then don't!
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What did they do? There's been far too much affirmation going on with children, from what I've heard.
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Sure. But you 'want' to say 'they' and this is to avoid using correct sex pronouns for a person who has requested the opposite sex pronouns. This is a partial compliance of their request. It is a positive reaction to their request not a rejection of it.

Well, she laughed, as I imagine many pupils did too.

Young people are increasingly tiring of the trans thing.

How is this relevant?

Just because a female person has chosen the name 'Arthur' doesn't require anyone to adopt male language conventions for her.

So, what has all of this exchange been about then?

Nobody has shifted their position at all.

Wow. You've read a few posts by me on using an ungendered pronoun and you can categorically state that I "despise the female"?

What you appear to despise is civilised debate.
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I stated asking to agree to disagree about 30 posts back!

All genderists despise the female. That's what it's about.

I am only suggesting that there is a solution to the problem of pronouns by using "they".
There is no 'problem of pronouns' to suggest there is would be to partially validate those who insist on their being used inaccurately -itself a deliberate attempt to validate the lived lie of sex change.

There is no problem because we have a rich and wonderful language which already has words with precise meanings:

• Male: he / him / his
• Female: she / her / hers
• Multiple people: they / them / theirs

The use of 'they' does not impose any gender beliefs on the person who uses it.
It is absolutely an attempt at coercion and bullying - to tell people to use an inaccurate word to pretend that reality is not true is imposing a gender belief. The only reason for using they / them etc. is to agree that it is not appropriate to use their birth sex based pronouns - that is imposing a lie / a gender ideology belief

But you don't have to say anything you don't want to say.
How gracious - absolutely right, amazingly we all have our own ability to think for ourselves and make our own grown-up decisions - using the standard English language is an easy decision to make.

The arrogance, self-centred focus, bullying and deceit of those who tell others that they must lie to bolster someone else's deceit is quite honestly outrageous.

If someone is a man then they should be referred to with male pronouns / if a woman, then they get female pronouns - it is so simple that toddlers manage it pretty accurately.

And yes, of course there may be the rare person where there is uncertainty - very rare, but for everyone else - let's return to the truth and honesty of using correct pronouns. The video above had 5 people in it:

• presenter - man
• guest - man
• boxer in red - man
• boxer in blue - woman
• referee - man

It is easy to see from how they speak / look / walk / fight / etc. So use the correct pronouns...

Yes, an utter devaluation of 'the female' and a rejection of it - especially in its social guises ( and devalued by women too).....except when a man wants to re-purpose it for sexual or emotional gratification.

I'm just off to look up what a genderist is before I can react to your blanket condemnation of an entire group of individuals as despising anything.

I think plenty of people have given you their very clear reasons as to why they don't consider using 'they' as being 'OK'.

It is your personal choice.

If you consider others 'rude', that is your personal judgement based on your wish to comply to someone else's language demand based on their own philosophical belief about themselves that doesn't reflect material reality. Go for it.

But do so acknowledging what you are doing. Including the political ramifications that some people with transgender identities use your compliance for, that you deny.

OK can you tell me which of these uses you meant?

genderism (countable and uncountable, plural genderisms)

1. (usually uncountable) A belief that gender is rigid, usually a belief that it is binary, comprising male and female, and that the aspects of a person's gender are inherently linked to their sex at birth. quotations ▼
2. Belief that one gender is superior; discrimination on the basis of gender. (Compare sexism.) quotations ▼
3. (in right-wing usage, derogatory) Opposition to traditional gender roles; belief that gender exists separate from sex; "gender ideology"; a variously-defined catch-all for things like transgender rights and feminism to which antigenderism is opposed. quotations ▼
4. (countable) A gendered or gender-stereotyped behaviour, activity or statement.

1. Could not be further from the truth of my views.
2. Could not be further from the truth of my views
3. Is my view, that everyone should be allowed to live how they feel most comforted and do the jobs and tasks they most want to do.
4. I am vehemently opposed to any type of gender stereotyping.

A genderist is someone who asserts the primacy of self identified gender over the reality sex.