just checking - since the SC there is no such thing as misgendering on Mumsnet? Or is there??

[loveyouradvice]

Just checking we can refer to TIM as he now? I think so... The deeply admirable Helen Joyce does and I share her rationale...

Goes all the way back to the sublime Pronouns are rohypnol from a much loved mums netter...

No, I meant 'and'. A one-off error is always understandable and excusable, consistently wiping out the critical female element of the word was both offensive and telling.

That's why I wrote 'and'.

Because I meant 'and'. I do not like it when I see the erasure of the female, over and over again.

This is what you said.

But you don't know what sex people are anyway unless you know them.
Implying that we can’t instantly tell the sex of most people.

Dud you gave any thoughts on the examples of beautiful but non conventionally feminine women mentioned above? Are you saying we can’t tell what sex they are?

And the use of ‘they’ when it should be ‘he’ is not clear at all. If any casual is unfamiliar with the case, they may not grasp the full horror of a man being knowingly sanctioned to punch women for sport by the IOC. Most people like to jump to the reasonable explanation that the world hasn’t gone mad and would assume they’d misunderstood and it is not a man punching a woman. Clarity is one of our key weapons yet you argue to give it away.

People with trans identities are either male or female just like everyone else. They are not a different category of human being. How they 'identify' is their own private business, not mine. If it is all so inconsequential then it should be they that makes the adjustment, not everyone else. I'm sure people can cope with being correctly sexed if they are realistic about their chosen identity. Why would they want to impose on others - and against the instincts of others?

How can it have been "telling" when I didn't realise I had spelt it wrong and when the correct definition of the word is meaningless in the context of the sentence in which I used it?

The use of 'they' does not impose any gender beliefs on the person who uses it.

And the use of ‘they’ when it should be ‘he’ is not clear at all. If any casual is unfamiliar with the case, they may not grasp the full horror of a man being knowingly sanctioned to punch women for sport by the IOC. Most people like to jump to the reasonable explanation that the world hasn’t gone mad and would assume they’d misunderstood and it is not a man punching a woman. Clarity is one of our key weapons yet you argue to give it away.

I read the sentence "They should not be boxing in a women only boxing match" perfectly clear. It can only mean they are male and hard from female competition.

You are trying to suggest we use 'they' rather than a pronoun which comes naturally and instinctively..and suggesting this is a nothing but a simple matter of being polite.

We can and do negotiate with our friends and family all of the time over terms of reference and styles of communication......but this is a private matter, and not one which belongs in a workplace. When something/a practice enters the public realm it becomes a political act.

Exactly,..so why muddy the waters by tippy-toeing around with pronouns? Clarity is always the best option - in order to avoid confusion; though /we are all aware that gender identity ideology relies on confusion and fuzzy boundaries to survive.

It imposes gender ideology and its rules of engagement onto other people.

We are going to need to agree to disagree about reliably being able to tell who is male and who is female from the look and sound of them.

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No it doesn't.

"They" is not gendered. The suggestion that "they" might be areasonable thing to say doesn't stop you calling anyone what you want to call them.

In what sentences? on the video or the sentences I proposed?

Shall I write them using ‘they’? Here are the sentences I wrote reusing just they.

“They should not be allowed to use the female single sex space.”

and

”Some people believe that this woman should not be competing in the female boxing category as they are too powerful.”

Both of these sentences require further explanation for the issue to become apparent. And if a sentence requires further explanation for the issue to become apparent it lacks precision. it is not ‘perfectly clear’ at all.

So please clarify are you talking about my sentences or the video.

I read the sentence "They should not be boxing in a women only boxing match" perfectly clear. It can only mean they are male and hard from female competition.

That should be "I find" not "I read" and "barred " not "hard", though I rather like that last one 😄

Women tend to far better at it than men. Men seem to rely more on objective symbols of 'masculinity' and 'femininity' whereas women tend to rely on more nuanced clues. This is probably why men tend more to fetishistic compulsions than women too. There are obviously ingrained biological motivations for this.

That is why men may be more easily confused when presented with long hair, the appearance of breasts and so on.....and which is probably why many men with trans identities actually believe they 'pass'.

Nobody should be describing male sportspeople as women.

But they do, don't they?

'They' is a way of avoiding saying 'he' or 'she', isn't it? Why would someone feel compelled to do that? And if it is no big deal, why are you making such a fuss about it yourself?

When something/a practice enters the public realm it becomes a political act.

I'm only seeing an evolution of language. The use of "they" has become normalised among the young and throughout the arts. We're all going to have to put up with hearing it. We don't have to say it.
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Language is very political. Ever read Dale Spender's 'Man Made Language'?

Queer Theory is also very much about manipulating language to create a different political reality.

I use 'they' myself sometimes, but only when it feels natural or instinctive, or when it achieves what I want it to.

I'm interested in knowing how people feel about using "misgendered" names. If a female at work asks you one day to call them Arthur going forward instead of Anne, what will people do?

Of course it does.

Despite your insistence otherwise, using they for a single person when their correct sex can reliably be identified instead of the correct sex pronouns as per established English language conventions can easily be said to be someone who is complying with an individual’s philosophical belief about their identity that doesn’t reflect material reality.

A person doing so is actively avoiding using the correct sex identifier. It is a partial concession if not a full compliance. The person using ‘they’ has made a deliberate change in their language to suit another person’s philosophical belief.

What other group’s philosophical belief that is not reflected in materially real and established fact do you comply with linguistically, even partly?

Of course it doesn't. Nobody can impose any beliefs on you. Your beliefs are internal to you.

They can try and impose behaviours on you. You can refuse.

I'm imagining it would depend on the person making that request, the nature of our relationship, and many other factors.

Language expectations are behaviour.