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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The words that have been pulled over your eyes

491 replies

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/05/2025 21:00

I initially wrote this as a reply to a thread in relationships, but rather than derail the thread I decided to post it in FWR as a thread in its own right about a common accusation made against gender critical feminists.

It is a response to the claim that the only people who object to the word "cis" are people who deny the existence of trans women, and that such people are transphobes.

"Transphobe", like "trans woman" and indeed "cis woman", are just the words trans activists use to hide what is really going on.

These words exist to hide one simple truth: Trans women are not, in any objective, real way, in any way outside their own heads, in any way that is real to anyone else, any closer to being a woman than any other man is.

"Trans women" in reality are just men who for some reason feel compelled (or sometimes just really want ) to adopt a cross-sex persona playing out whatever their idea of what a woman is.

The words exist to make it sound like a reasonable thing when such men demand that their wives, children, friends and family, colleagues, officials, all of society pretend they are women, let them enter private spaces for women, let them touch or counsel women in roles reserved for women, let them take prizes for women, let them speak for women.

Because we'd never accept that as ok from men. But it's ok for trans women, and if it's not ok that's transphobia.

And we'd never say women in general are more privileged and powerful than men, but call the men trans women and the women cis women and suddenly everyone nods along. And if they don't it's transphobia.

But I don't believe the thing that makes men and women different is our minds. And without that belief, the whole thing falls apart.

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 21:26

Shodan · 27/05/2025 21:06

What is an Active Agent of Harm (AAH?)

Is it like Candida?

Or is it like MIB?

It's a show on Amazon Prime.

ArabellaScott · 27/05/2025 21:35

TheKeatingFive · 27/05/2025 21:21

Active Agents of Harm?

Dear god the DRAMA 😱😱😱

I will never understand why this nonsense has been indulged for so long. The self centredness and constant victimhood is just shocking.

Meanwhile there are poor women locked up in prison cells with men because of this errant bullshit.

miss piggy film GIF

I read active agent of ham.

JellySaurus · 27/05/2025 21:37

I don't even understand Butterfly's reply to me. It makes no sense. We appear to occupy parallel universes. I know which one I consider to be material reality, and which one is reinforced delusion.

Shodan · 27/05/2025 21:45

ArabellaScott · 27/05/2025 21:35

I read active agent of ham.

There are even butterflies on the cape on the right.

Fabulous.

Datun · 27/05/2025 21:46

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 20:40

I don't know what your life is like. The Mumsnetters I know in real life are either recovering from their past behaviours, or people who dip in and out to comment on threads that especially horrify them. It's just a very different mindset to the kind we generally encounter in daily life - the social circles I exist in nowadays studiously avoid people who do and say things that are harmful to trans people, and find the idea of existing in social spaces that permit those kinds of behaviours to be abhorrent. We've all been in a bit of a daze for the last month, trying to comprehend the utterly bizarre nature of toilet bans in the UK of all places.

It sometimes feels like there are two countries overlapped on top of one another - one consists of people who are safe to be around, and one consists of people who have proven themselves to be active agents of harm to both myself and my friends.

I know a lot of people - cis and trans - who are desperately upset by the Supreme Court ruling, the EHRC guidance that has picked it up and run off with it, and the general rise of horrendous anti-trans rhetoric on both sides of the atlantic.

All this stuff has very real, very unpleasant, and sometimes very final consequences. We have lost people we love very dearly to this, and there is seemingly no end in sight.

Oh dear God. Just use the correct toilet and grow up.

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 21:50

JellySaurus · 27/05/2025 21:37

I don't even understand Butterfly's reply to me. It makes no sense. We appear to occupy parallel universes. I know which one I consider to be material reality, and which one is reinforced delusion.

Butters is just making shit up using co pilot at this point I think.

Datun · 27/05/2025 21:50

I really can't engage any further with this nonsense.

I know which one I consider to be material reality, and which one is reinforced delusion.

Dear god the DRAMA

I will never understand why this nonsense has been indulged for so long.

Crampons working overtime

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 21:51

Datun · 27/05/2025 21:46

Oh dear God. Just use the correct toilet and grow up.

Watch your tone Datun...

...you might be mistaken as mean.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/05/2025 21:53

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 21:51

Watch your tone Datun...

...you might be mistaken as mean.

Or terrifying (with freakishly large feet)

EdithStourton · 27/05/2025 21:54

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:04

Did you make sure to wipe things down afterwards and remove the plastic sheeting to prevent contamination?

Seriously. Very few people in this country in 2025 have never been in the same house as a trans person. You say it like it's a heroic ordeal worthy of a medal. I've hosted people with 'gender critical' views in my house before. It's almost inescapable sadly.

Maybe, rather than being needlessly insulting, you could deal with the substance of my post - about sports and safeguarding.

I'll wait.

Datun · 27/05/2025 21:54

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 21:51

Watch your tone Datun...

...you might be mistaken as mean.

I honestly felt like I was coming across as someone's mum. Very familiar territory.

It's that childish.

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 21:55

EdithStourton · 27/05/2025 21:54

Maybe, rather than being needlessly insulting, you could deal with the substance of my post - about sports and safeguarding.

I'll wait.

You could be waiting a while there... I'd do something worthwhile in the meantime.

Like learn a entire new language

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 21:56

Datun · 27/05/2025 21:54

I honestly felt like I was coming across as someone's mum. Very familiar territory.

It's that childish.

Oh I hope you've caught up with today's posts in full...

Datun · 27/05/2025 21:57

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 21:56

Oh I hope you've caught up with today's posts in full...

Oh, I probably haven't !

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 22:02

Datun · 27/05/2025 21:57

Oh, I probably haven't !

Wellllll.... It's off the scale even by Butters usual standards.

EdithStourton · 27/05/2025 22:04

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 21:55

You could be waiting a while there... I'd do something worthwhile in the meantime.

Like learn a entire new language

It's okay, I've got some shelves to paint. Primer, undercoat x2, gloss x2. That'll keep me going for a while.

I am boggled by the waily-wail self-obsession. I shouldn't be by now, but it gets me every single sodding time.

GailBlancheViola · 27/05/2025 22:18

Datun · 27/05/2025 21:57

Oh, I probably haven't !

It's been an education shall we say.

Boils down to mean women who dared to go to Court to have their rights in Law clarified and upheld are responsible for people on social media sites - but definitely not this one but the women on MN are scary and it is their fault really - telling Butterfly that they are going to put him in an oven.

And, and, and it was very nasty of women to celebrate a Court victory that asserted and upheld their rights and clarified that women are indeed worthy of respect, consideration and human rights. Ever so bad, women should never have gone to Court they should just have done what they were told.

And, and, and if a women says they are 5'2" and a size 8 the size 8 bit refers to their shoe size.

And, and, and a whole load more risible, hyperbolic nonsense.

It's been a wild old ride.

Enough4me · 27/05/2025 22:22

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 20:40

I don't know what your life is like. The Mumsnetters I know in real life are either recovering from their past behaviours, or people who dip in and out to comment on threads that especially horrify them. It's just a very different mindset to the kind we generally encounter in daily life - the social circles I exist in nowadays studiously avoid people who do and say things that are harmful to trans people, and find the idea of existing in social spaces that permit those kinds of behaviours to be abhorrent. We've all been in a bit of a daze for the last month, trying to comprehend the utterly bizarre nature of toilet bans in the UK of all places.

It sometimes feels like there are two countries overlapped on top of one another - one consists of people who are safe to be around, and one consists of people who have proven themselves to be active agents of harm to both myself and my friends.

I know a lot of people - cis and trans - who are desperately upset by the Supreme Court ruling, the EHRC guidance that has picked it up and run off with it, and the general rise of horrendous anti-trans rhetoric on both sides of the atlantic.

All this stuff has very real, very unpleasant, and sometimes very final consequences. We have lost people we love very dearly to this, and there is seemingly no end in sight.

This is absolute nonsense. You are a man pretending to be a woman. You are the one who needs the reality check.
I understand it's difficult as your friends are lying to you but hopefully you feel welcome to pop in here to hear the truth. One day you may thank MN for helping you see reality.
This isn't completely your fault, there should be more mental health support to help with your dysphoria, so you can love your true self.
You are ok as a man, your maleness is fine but don't use the angry side to try to damage women.

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 23:07

Enough4me · 27/05/2025 22:22

This is absolute nonsense. You are a man pretending to be a woman. You are the one who needs the reality check.
I understand it's difficult as your friends are lying to you but hopefully you feel welcome to pop in here to hear the truth. One day you may thank MN for helping you see reality.
This isn't completely your fault, there should be more mental health support to help with your dysphoria, so you can love your true self.
You are ok as a man, your maleness is fine but don't use the angry side to try to damage women.

This was a particularly feeble attempt to needle.

You are the one who brought up Reality Checks, not me.

I do love my true self. Took a long time to get there - sure helped being able to look in the mirror and not feel crushing dysphoria. Helped even more existing in social groups while being perceived congruently. Took a good couple of years to get over the fear, but it was almost completely gone for decades until it came crashing back with a vengeance last month.

Something has to give. We can't exist like this. It's worse than it's ever been in my entire life.

Enough4me · 27/05/2025 23:11

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 23:07

This was a particularly feeble attempt to needle.

You are the one who brought up Reality Checks, not me.

I do love my true self. Took a long time to get there - sure helped being able to look in the mirror and not feel crushing dysphoria. Helped even more existing in social groups while being perceived congruently. Took a good couple of years to get over the fear, but it was almost completely gone for decades until it came crashing back with a vengeance last month.

Something has to give. We can't exist like this. It's worse than it's ever been in my entire life.

You can learn to love your true self and stop all this pain. You can look in a mirror and see the man you are and it's fine. If you're hairy, bald whatever- you as a man is fine!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/05/2025 23:11

GailBlancheViola · 27/05/2025 22:18

It's been an education shall we say.

Boils down to mean women who dared to go to Court to have their rights in Law clarified and upheld are responsible for people on social media sites - but definitely not this one but the women on MN are scary and it is their fault really - telling Butterfly that they are going to put him in an oven.

And, and, and it was very nasty of women to celebrate a Court victory that asserted and upheld their rights and clarified that women are indeed worthy of respect, consideration and human rights. Ever so bad, women should never have gone to Court they should just have done what they were told.

And, and, and if a women says they are 5'2" and a size 8 the size 8 bit refers to their shoe size.

And, and, and a whole load more risible, hyperbolic nonsense.

It's been a wild old ride.

Has Butterfly linked to the forum where people threatened to put him in an oven?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/05/2025 23:12

Enough4me · 27/05/2025 23:11

You can learn to love your true self and stop all this pain. You can look in a mirror and see the man you are and it's fine. If you're hairy, bald whatever- you as a man is fine!

Exactly this.

Choosing to believe that 99% of the population has a personality which matches their genitalia is completely optional. And bonkers.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/05/2025 23:19

existing in social groups while being perceived congruently

heavens to murgatroyd, what patent nonsense

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/05/2025 23:22

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 23:07

This was a particularly feeble attempt to needle.

You are the one who brought up Reality Checks, not me.

I do love my true self. Took a long time to get there - sure helped being able to look in the mirror and not feel crushing dysphoria. Helped even more existing in social groups while being perceived congruently. Took a good couple of years to get over the fear, but it was almost completely gone for decades until it came crashing back with a vengeance last month.

Something has to give. We can't exist like this. It's worse than it's ever been in my entire life.

Honey, no one in your social groups actually perceives you as a woman. They're just being nice.

Seethlaw · 27/05/2025 23:26

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 23:07

This was a particularly feeble attempt to needle.

You are the one who brought up Reality Checks, not me.

I do love my true self. Took a long time to get there - sure helped being able to look in the mirror and not feel crushing dysphoria. Helped even more existing in social groups while being perceived congruently. Took a good couple of years to get over the fear, but it was almost completely gone for decades until it came crashing back with a vengeance last month.

Something has to give. We can't exist like this. It's worse than it's ever been in my entire life.

You're literally saying that you need multiple, extensive lies to tolerate yourself.

And I should want to be like you??

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