Is there a name for this?

[Confusedpleaseeducateme]

Pardon my ignorance. But can anyone help? Genuine question. Just a NC

I say that I'm GC as I don't believe you can change sex. However I strongly believe you should go where your genitals match. E. G. If you've COMPLETELY transitioned then use that toilet.
By all means say you're a different gender (and I'll just roll my eyes internally) but personally I don't have a problem if a true TW uses the ladies facilities. I just don't want to share female spaces with a penis!

I don't believe TWAW. I believe they are TW.

Does that make sense? Please be gentle... First time posting on this board but been reading a long time but don't recall seeing anyone saying anything about this? But I could just be being dull... Menopausal brain!

Spiders have eight limbs? Although I think all those complicated bits round their mouths, and even their spinnerets, may have evolved from the same ancestral...thing.

This thread almost makes me nostalgic. I recall a time when I realised I'd mentally classified a TW, probably IW of all people, as not exactly man but not exactly woman. They'd had all the surgeries as far as I was aware. So, I had a think. I realised my classification of the TW made absolutely no sense, there is no third sex and that person definitely wasn't a woman.

As pp have mentioned cosmetic surgery on genitalia is fraught with complications. People, who are likely to have comorbidities, should not be motivated to take that route.

Then think of the blokiest bloke you know. Built like the proverbial, broad shoulders, craggy brow, the lot. Imagine one day he decides he has a lady brain. Do you truly believe any number of surgeries would make him someone you'd be comfortable with in a room where you may be naked and vulnerable?

I used to have a lot of empathy for these men but it rapidly dwindled to almost nothing when I understood that most of them weren't going to take no for an answer.

To answer your question as to how you should describe your reasoning.

Transpeople would call you a transphobic bigot for discriminating between which transpeople you personally find acceptable and those you don't.

Gender critical people would say that you don't seem to understand that there is no way of knowing whether a transperson has modified their body or not and it would not be appropriate to ask.

People who have not thought about this may possibly agree with you, so I would put you in the category of people who are not affected, have not thought it through, don't care that much.

I assume that your arms woukd count so only 4 not 6 needed.

A diverse group of people can sit under the GC umbrella, just like the diverse range of people under the trans umbrella.

I think the term GC broadly captures recognition that sex is material and exists independently of identity and feelings. I think it also captures the belief that gendered ideas are harmful and reductive and that the only thing that females are guaranteed to have in common is being female.

Beyond that, people’s views about what accommodations should be made, if any, to include trans people in society differs greatly. Wanting to dismantle single sex provision by including some people of the opposite sex does not mean that someone isn’t gender critical (as per my above definition), it just means they don’t think single sex provision is all that important.

@RareGoalsVerge

An artificially structured fistula at the site of a eunuch's wound is not a vagina

Technically a sinus rather than a fistula; at least that is what is aimed for.

(Just pointing out to be helpful so people don't argue with about the words rather than the issue.)

It all sounds gruesome enough.

Quite right! The arms didn't occur to me!

I see I've started something with the spider analogy. I did indeed mean to count the arms as limbs. However i do suspect that if I'd have said 6 legs sewn on, someone would have informed me that makes 10 😅

A woman is not a surgically altered man.

If a man lost his penis & testicles in an accident is he then a woman?

A biological male is male because his body follows a pathway at conception to produce small mobile gametes. If he removes the delivery mechanism for these gametes he’s still male.

Males go through male puberty, on average most men are physically stronger than most women. Creating an approximation of a female body part does not alter this.

Sex segregated spaces are segregated due to biological sex, not what surgery a man may have undergone - & very few men undergo this surgery.

There is no such thing as a sex change. Anybody in a female only space who isn’t a female is a male.

Also OP, you should probably know that the term 'gender critical' originally came about because feminists are critical of gender stereotypes - because they are oppressive and harmful to everyone, but especially to women.

Gender critical is shorthand for this view.

Originally it had nothing to do with transgender people. Feminists support gender non conformity and understand that has nothing to do with your sex. If you are female, you stay female, no matter what clothes you wear or how you style your hair or whether or not you wear makeup. It makes no difference what your interests are, who your friends on, what you do for a living. You are still female. In other words, woman is not a costume or a 'look' that we all have to conform to. It is simply your sex, which cannot be changed.

Transgender ideology relies on and promotes gender stereotypes. A man puts on a wig, dress and makeup and says, 'Look, I'm a woman now'. No. It doesn't work like that. Those are just gender stereotypes.

On this note, a question from the ignorant - if a penis is inverted into a neo vagina, even if it physically appears perfectly normal, is it not in the wrong place? Surely since males don't have a cavity in the same place as females the placement is all completely different... or you have some pretty awful scarring on the front and then a non functional hole underneath.

I'll be gentle, but I'm laughing a bit, OP. No trans person who has had 'the surgery' actually has the genitals of the opposite sex. Most don't get any genital surgery at all, luckily for them. But of the ones that do:

Trans-identifying men ("transwomen") have either a) a shrunken penis from oestrogen abuse and an orchiectomy / removal of the balls, or b) an interverted penis, plus removal of the balls

While trans-identifying women ("trans men") have either a) a roll of arm or thigh skin attached to the pelvis, or b) a clitoris enlarged to about the size of a thumb through abuse of testosterone, which has been cut free of the surrounding ligaments to 'stand' in place.

There is no way to create a penis or a vagina for transitioning people. So if you wanted everyone to go in the bathroom that matched their genitals, as you suggest . . . you'd have to have your typical male and female bathroom, plus an additional four bathrooms, to accommodate the proportion of trans people who have had varying configurations of genital surgery. All that for a minority within a minority, which is less than one percent of the population.

It'd be a bit mad.

For someone with the username @Confusedpleaseeducateme you have been surprisingly absent from your own thread.

Where is your engagement with the posters that you specifically asked to 'educate' you?

You’re right. She’s only posted 4 times throughout the thread.

Maybe he/she is still reading the SC judgement I helpfully linked to, lovely as I am 🤷🏻‍♀️

You're all so bloody #bekind, that's the trouble! 😛

is it not in the wrong place?

Correct! Gold star.

Or at least in a different place - an ardent genderist would start a spiel on how there are no wrong places and every woman is different.

Actually, here's a real example of that from Reddit I saw the other day.

As pps have said, the idea that there are true TW and some other form of TW is troublesome. Ultimately the only thing ALL "TW" have is common is that they are men.

Indeed they seem keen to avoid collating this data. I read Alex Massie’s article the other day where he points out that Scottish Prisons are going to release numbers of male people in female prisons. all the while there IS male prisoners in female prisons despite the clarification of the law.

Ewww!!!

I understand the point you’re trying to make OP. I have an acquaintance (friend of a friend) who’s a trans man but accepts still being biologically female. Absolutely looks the part, very masculine and if my friend hadn’t told me, I genuinely would not have known. If this person now starts using the female toilets, that’s going to cause a scene as most women will assume, based on external appearances that said person is male.

I 100% support the ruling but I can also see how it will create side issues too.

@Confusedpleaseeducateme sharing a link to this thread, the person speaking is someone you would describe as having made the effort and removed their genitals (by their own hand whilst in prison).

Answer honestly please - would you really have no problem sharing ladies facilities with this person? One who is inciting violence against named women?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5342120-sarah-jane-baker-leads-topless-protest-in-london-and-threatens-named-women

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5342120-sarah-jane-baker-leads-topless-protest-in-london-and-threatens-named-women?page=1

To add. This same bloke has been making threats to harm individual women (who he names) which theoretically is against his parole conditions.

His behaviour is getting more and more concerning.

Is kindness, tolerance and indulging of this behaviour reducing it, or escalating it and normalising it towards women, based on the evidence of that one particular well known face and voice for the lobby?

Who incidentally performed a few days ago for Surrey Pride, the founder of which is awaiting sentencing for child rape, plus one other member of staff, is currently awaiting sentencing for pedophilia offences.

The police stood there and watched this man out on licence make open threats of violence.