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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 22:34

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/05/2025 22:26

He really is an expert in all this and is very informative with his explanations of the male fetishes underpinning so much of all this.

Yes indeed: 9 types of transvestite, 8 of which involve sexual arousal or excitement; Autogynephiles who are sexually aroused at the fantasy of having female body parts and then'various other' fetishists

(I'm just precising chapter 2 of his book, Mumsnet)

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 22:38

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:34

@ThatCyanCat
you're rather concerned about my femininity and gender aren't you

You're the one pushing for men to get their knobs out in the ladies', Brigitte.

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 22:41

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:34

@ThatCyanCat
you're rather concerned about my femininity and gender aren't you

What is gender Brigitte?

BiologicalRobot · 15/05/2025 22:41

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:10

@Alucard55
Yes, people keep repeating that same line.
But please someone say what you are ACTUALLY afraid of happening in that situation.
Just judgements no real reasons is all I see.

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would.

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would.

Explain to me how I would know if the male person was a straight man or a transwoman? Or whether he was a rapist or just wanted to pee?

Alucard55 · 15/05/2025 22:42

@Brigitte33 do you think biological men should be permitted to enter/use spaces marked female only?

Alucard55 · 15/05/2025 22:46

BiologicalRobot · 15/05/2025 22:41

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would.

Explain to me how I would know if the male person was a straight man or a transwoman? Or whether he was a rapist or just wanted to pee?

In the words of the great Helen Joyce. They're all men. Some have pieces of paper and some don't. I'm sure Briggite will be along to explain that I've got that all wrong though.

Apollo441 · 15/05/2025 22:47

spannasaurus · 15/05/2025 22:11

A lot of "transwomen" are straight men

MOST transwomen are straight men.

DialSquare · 15/05/2025 22:51

I must say, being apparently worried about men looking at our saggy tits and flabby arses is a new one for the bingo card!

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 22:56

DialSquare · 15/05/2025 22:51

I must say, being apparently worried about men looking at our saggy tits and flabby arses is a new one for the bingo card!

Not really new. Men have been telling women they're too ugly to be abused, while trying to enable abusers, for a very long time. Honestly, I forget how old I am and therefore how young some of them are sometimes. They don't realise how depressingly long we've been hearing it on the Internet. They think it'll blindside us.

Brigitte seems to have gone quiet though. Talk about women having pillow fights and lathering each other up can do that. Or maybe it was all the saggy tits and flabby arses.

DecayedStrumpet · 15/05/2025 22:56

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:10

@Alucard55
Yes, people keep repeating that same line.
But please someone say what you are ACTUALLY afraid of happening in that situation.
Just judgements no real reasons is all I see.

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would.

Why are you concerned about having a straight male in your changing space? He doesn't want to look at your flabby arse and saggy tits, get over yourself!

Apollo441 · 15/05/2025 22:57

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:34

@ThatCyanCat
you're rather concerned about my femininity and gender aren't you

No they are taking the micky. People on here couldn't give a rat's arse about femininity and think gender is harmful stereotypes imposed by the patriarchy. You'd understand that if you weren't so invested in misrepresenting us.

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 23:00

I wish you could name change within a thread. SaggyTitsAndFlabbyArse would go down so well.

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 23:00

Since my earlier post is still standing, I will add to it for the benefit of lurkers. Dr Hakeem set up and ran the UK's first Gender Dysphoria psychotherapy clinic in the NHS. Apart from the men with sexual arousal/fetishes listed above, he also describes the other category of 'trans'- transsexuals. He says these form a much smaller percentage of the 'trans' population. He also writes about Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria in children, which he believes is a form of youth subculture

DialSquare · 15/05/2025 23:04

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 23:00

I wish you could name change within a thread. SaggyTitsAndFlabbyArse would go down so well.

I had the exact same thought!

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 23:05

%7Cheretics.

Video of interview with Dr Hakeem. No-one has to believe he is correct about everything, but he is not a person whose vast experience and compassion should be ignored

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?ab_channel=andrewgold%7Cheretics.&v=whvkEmLi9aQ

Datun · 15/05/2025 23:06

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 22:38

You're the one pushing for men to get their knobs out in the ladies', Brigitte.

Not just their knobs. Judging by the pics on this thread, their flabby arses and saggy tits, too.

Accusations being admissions, and all that

DialSquare · 15/05/2025 23:07

What do we do if we have flabby tits and saggy arses? Wouldn’t want anyone to feel left out.

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 23:10

DialSquare · 15/05/2025 23:07

What do we do if we have flabby tits and saggy arses? Wouldn’t want anyone to feel left out.

Become a human barricade for the door to keep men out. I'll go first. If I don't trip over my tits.

Seethlaw · 15/05/2025 23:10

@WithSilverBells

You mentioned a book by Dr Hakeem. Is it "Trans"? It looks interesting.

Datun · 15/05/2025 23:12

DialSquare · 15/05/2025 23:07

What do we do if we have flabby tits and saggy arses? Wouldn’t want anyone to feel left out.

And what do we do if we don't? Is it a prerequisite??

This gatekeeping is so hard

Justwrong68 · 15/05/2025 23:14

how condescending! Telling us to read it twice, not to judge, assuming older generations don’t understand trans. The generation you speak of were gender fluid before it was a phrase; we didn’t judge people by appearance, but we did trust people to respect boundaries. It beggars belief that you pretend that confusion in toilet queues is down to the Supreme Court ruling and nothing to do with the rise of the totalitarian gender ideology.

SaggyTitsAndFlabbyArse · 15/05/2025 23:14

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 23:00

I wish you could name change within a thread. SaggyTitsAndFlabbyArse would go down so well.

You rang?

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 23:14

Seethlaw · 15/05/2025 23:10

@WithSilverBells

You mentioned a book by Dr Hakeem. Is it "Trans"? It looks interesting.

He wrote 'Trans' and 'Detrans'. If memory serves he has more experience of trans-identifying males than females. Partly because the huge rise in numbers of the latter has been quite recent and mainly in young people

DialSquare · 15/05/2025 23:15

Datun · 15/05/2025 23:12

And what do we do if we don't? Is it a prerequisite??

This gatekeeping is so hard

You don’t?!!!!!

I thought it was standard with all us ugly old hags!

Datun · 15/05/2025 23:15

SaggyTitsAndFlabbyArse · 15/05/2025 23:14

You rang?

🤣🤣🤣