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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
potpourree · 15/05/2025 22:14

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:03

@Seethlaw

Have you ever been in contact or had a meaningful conversation with a trans person?
I'm guessing not.

There have been a lot of really bad "guesses" and "imaginings" in here today, but this has got to win some sort of prize for the terriblest guess!

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 22:14

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:12

@MissScarletInTheBallroom ... so, it IS what I said in my initial comment then, ..... you're worried that that might want to look at your flabby arse and saggy tits.

Don't flatter yourselves.

What brings you to the Feminist board, Brigitte?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 22:14

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:10

@Alucard55
Yes, people keep repeating that same line.
But please someone say what you are ACTUALLY afraid of happening in that situation.
Just judgements no real reasons is all I see.

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would.

Well when Katie Dolatowski used women's toilets he sexually assaulted a 10 year old girl on one occasion and filmed a 12 year old girl on the toilet on another.

@ArabellaScott said a few minutes ago on this thread that she personally encountered a trans woman masturbating in women's toilets once.

Trans women aren't different to other men. They still pose a risk to women in the same way that other men do.

Personally I would be more wary of getting changed next to a heterosexual male who says he identifies as a woman than a heterosexual man who accepts that he is a man. But I'd prefer not to get changed next to either.

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 22:14

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:01

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

So what's the issue with trans women using womens bathrooms and changing spaces then if you aren't concerned with them being around other women in those environments?

Because it seems to be a huge issue on here but no one is stating what they are actually concerned about/ afraid of happening on that circumstance.

Are you afraid a trans woman is actually a man in disguise just trying to leer at you?
Ridiculous.
I don't see any real reasons- just transphobic comments.

People are afraid of what they don't understand.

Bathrooms? Do you mean public toilets?

Most public toilets are organised by sex. Transwomen are men so don’t belong in the female toilets. It is a fact not feeling.

There are lots of men that I have no concerns about them wanting to ‘leer’ at me. I still wouldn’t want to share toilets and changing rooms with them.

Why do you think transwomen are not men? Their motivations for being trans don’t change the fact that they are male/men. That’s just reality.

spannasaurus · 15/05/2025 22:14

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:13

@spannasaurus
And where did you learn that little fact?
Daily mail?

Do you really believe this person is a lesbian?
I would describe him as a straight man.

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
Cismyfatarse · 15/05/2025 22:18

Aggressive man shouts at woman? What is new about that? And you or some people think we should share spaces with them? Really?

JudgeJ · 15/05/2025 22:18

Christinapple · 15/05/2025 16:15

A cisgender person just means someone who isn't trans. HTH

Not at all, or maybe NAA

Alucard55 · 15/05/2025 22:18

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:10

@Alucard55
Yes, people keep repeating that same line.
But please someone say what you are ACTUALLY afraid of happening in that situation.
Just judgements no real reasons is all I see.

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would.

I'm not afraid of anything happening. I believe that women have fought long and hard for their rights and single sex spaces and categories are one of those rights. There is absolutely no need for biological men to be using women's single sex spaces.

potpourree · 15/05/2025 22:19

Frazzled83 · 15/05/2025 21:32

Because mumsnet logged me under a different username for reasons I cannot explain. I identify as both 🤷🏼‍♀️😂

You would have to have two accounts for that.

There used to be some very revealing name-change fails on MN before they set up procedures to try and prevent effortless sock-puppeting. Kind of miss those, so thanks for a blast from the past!

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 22:19

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:01

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

So what's the issue with trans women using womens bathrooms and changing spaces then if you aren't concerned with them being around other women in those environments?

Because it seems to be a huge issue on here but no one is stating what they are actually concerned about/ afraid of happening on that circumstance.

Are you afraid a trans woman is actually a man in disguise just trying to leer at you?
Ridiculous.
I don't see any real reasons- just transphobic comments.

People are afraid of what they don't understand.

So what's the issue with trans women using womens bathrooms and changing spaces then if you aren't concerned with them being around other women in those environments?

Quit with the "other" women. My four year old does better sleight of hand and you are fooling nobody. TW are not women. You know it, we know it. Why would I read a single word you say past this now that I know you will lie about something so basic and real as men not being women? If you lie about that you'll lie about anything. You have nothing to contribute.

It's not a human right for men to get their knobs out in the women's changing room and access tk naked women and girls isn't a mental health therapy for deluded men. Creep off.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/05/2025 22:20

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 22:14

What brings you to the Feminist board, Brigitte?

Good question. Sexism, ageism, misogyny minimising abuse of women. Quite a display on a feminist board of predominantly women.

PonyPatter44 · 15/05/2025 22:20

Pretty much every transwoman I know is a sex offender. Like, 90% of perhaps 30 TWs I've met over the years.

Also, that Caz story is a load of tosh, and the image is AI. The smoking gun is that no actual "music producer" would fail to use their real name in such a high-profile article. Its all about the publicity, isn't it?

Arran2024 · 15/05/2025 22:21

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:10

@Alucard55
Yes, people keep repeating that same line.
But please someone say what you are ACTUALLY afraid of happening in that situation.
Just judgements no real reasons is all I see.

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would.

OK I'll bite.

I have 2 adult adopted daughters. They are sisters, removed from their birth family due to severe neglect - they nearly died.

They have anxiety off the scale. Their hypervigilance in public is off the scale. They have panic attacks when something upsetting happens. They have no way to control this - it is hard wired into them.

And for them, finding a man in the ladies would be catastrophic.

They need the scaffolding that same sex spaces like toilets offer to be able to go out and feel safe. They should not be put in a situation where they feel unsafe.

I have encountered men in the ladies. In a small space, with cubicles, tucked away in a restaurant or shopping centre, just me and the trans woman....it is extremely alarming even for me, with no trauma background. I don't want it but my daughters simply can't cope.

And they shouldn't have to.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/05/2025 22:22

potpourree · 15/05/2025 22:19

You would have to have two accounts for that.

There used to be some very revealing name-change fails on MN before they set up procedures to try and prevent effortless sock-puppeting. Kind of miss those, so thanks for a blast from the past!

Indeed. Sock puppets usually revealed themselves on threads by responding to themselves.
Just as we've seen 😂

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 22:23

People who lie about men being women are dishonest in other ways too? Well I never.

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 22:23

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:13

@spannasaurus
And where did you learn that little fact?
Daily mail?

Dr Az Hakeem MBBS Msc FRCPsych

DialSquare · 15/05/2025 22:25

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:03

@Seethlaw

Have you ever been in contact or had a meaningful conversation with a trans person?
I'm guessing not.

Oh dear

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/05/2025 22:26

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 22:23

Dr Az Hakeem MBBS Msc FRCPsych

He really is an expert in all this and is very informative with his explanations of the male fetishes underpinning so much of all this.

mrshoho · 15/05/2025 22:27

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:10

@Alucard55
Yes, people keep repeating that same line.
But please someone say what you are ACTUALLY afraid of happening in that situation.
Just judgements no real reasons is all I see.

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would.

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would.

To answer you Brigitte, No, there is no difference. A TW is as biologically male as a straight male. The only difference is the TW either believes he is a woman or desires to be seen by others as a woman. This belief exists in his head and only his. We have moved on from this ridiculous period in time where we were expected to ignore the truth and affirm these lies (hallelujah).

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 22:28

Ah, I see Brigitte of the exquisitely feminine username is trying to shut women down by telling them they're too ugly to be sexually harassed. Where's your womanly compassion, oh Brigitte? Why on earth are you so keen to get men into women's spaces, Brigitte? It's not very feminine behaviour, is it, Brigitte?

Codlingmoths · 15/05/2025 22:29

One aggressive man is one aggressive man. He’s just your usual bog standard aggressive man that women don’t want to meet in a dark alley. The sooner people remember you can dress how you like and cut your hair how you like and nothing at all changes about whether you’re a woman or not, the sooner this will stop.

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:30

@ThatCyanCat
Whoever said I had to display feminine behaviour?

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 22:32

You know something, Brigitte, you got us. I'll tell you why we don't want TW in our spaces. It's a secret but you're so womanly you'll work it out eventually. It's because we really use them to have pillow fights and lather each other up with soap suds. That's why the queue is so long and we always go in groups. But you're a woman, so you knew that, didn't you, Brigitte?

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 22:33

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:30

@ThatCyanCat
Whoever said I had to display feminine behaviour?

Oh believe me, nobody is expecting you to. Brigitte.

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:34

@ThatCyanCat
you're rather concerned about my femininity and gender aren't you