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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 23:16

SaggyTitsAndFlabbyArse · 15/05/2025 23:14

You rang?

😂

Seethlaw · 15/05/2025 23:16

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 23:14

He wrote 'Trans' and 'Detrans'. If memory serves he has more experience of trans-identifying males than females. Partly because the huge rise in numbers of the latter has been quite recent and mainly in young people

Oh, that's all right if it's not so much about trans-identifying females. I'm just trying to learn more in general. Thanks for mentioning this book!

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 23:17

SaggyTitsAndFlabbyArse · 15/05/2025 23:14

You rang?

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

The funny thing is, we owe all this to Brigitte.

Well, you're first as a door barricade. I'll take the next watch.

Datun · 15/05/2025 23:17

DialSquare · 15/05/2025 23:15

You don’t?!!!!!

I thought it was standard with all us ugly old hags!

Well it's a toss up. I can't really see them without my specs, so God knows what they look like, and obviously I can't remember where my specs are, and that's if I don't completely forget that I'm looking for them in the first place

DialSquare · 15/05/2025 23:20

Datun · 15/05/2025 23:17

Well it's a toss up. I can't really see them without my specs, so God knows what they look like, and obviously I can't remember where my specs are, and that's if I don't completely forget that I'm looking for them in the first place

Edited

In my experience, they’ll be on your head!

Justwrong68 · 15/05/2025 23:23

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 07:09

I think there are a lot of people who need to relax their views of masculinity and femininity. It's become clearer that people are suspicious of those who subvert their expectations of what a woman or man should look like.

In your dreams mate

MistyGreenAndBlue · 15/05/2025 23:28

Frazzled83 · 15/05/2025 20:45

The frothing I refer to is in relation to the complete lack of nuance and refusal to see that there is nuance and shades of grey in this debate.

I actually thought I might be a bit on the TERFY side, because I don’t think feminism applies to transwomen. Mainly because it’s a whole different experience growing up as a girl in this world, being socialised as a girl, going through puberty, dealing with all the patriarchal bullshit. I think it devalues the experiences of both sets of people.

My age and experience (thanks for the free patronising by the way, I usually have to take my car to a garage for that) of working with very vulnerable people has taught me it really is generally better to not be a shit about things. Rather hope I don’t grow out of that.

But you ARE being a shit. To vulnerable women who need single sex spaces to be just that.
To the women on this forum who are fighting for women's rights who you dismiss as "frothing TERFS"
And even to the very cohort you claim to be defending. Men in dresses? Who are YOU to decide which are "men in dresses" and which are "genuine transwomen"?
Ha! I've got it. You are Layla Moran and I claim my £5

Datun · 15/05/2025 23:40

DialSquare · 15/05/2025 23:20

In my experience, they’ll be on your head!

Haha!! Always!

illinivich · 16/05/2025 01:51

I wouldn't have thought this needed spelling out on a feminists board on a parenting website, but its girls we are protecting isn't it?

I know no-one is queuing up to see my saggy body, but im saying no because we all know that some men would do anything to access girls. I have to be the person in their way.

But apparently for some, its a balancing of rights and they dont want to be the barrier, but hold the door open instead. Either by being the man normalising men in single sex spaces, or being a women who doesn't want to upset that man.

spherically · 16/05/2025 02:39

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:01

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

So what's the issue with trans women using womens bathrooms and changing spaces then if you aren't concerned with them being around other women in those environments?

Because it seems to be a huge issue on here but no one is stating what they are actually concerned about/ afraid of happening on that circumstance.

Are you afraid a trans woman is actually a man in disguise just trying to leer at you?
Ridiculous.
I don't see any real reasons- just transphobic comments.

People are afraid of what they don't understand.

"Trans women" are men. So obviously the issue is that they are men using women's bathrooms and changing rooms.

RareGoalsVerge · 16/05/2025 04:49

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 21:49

So hang on.... just so I understand-
Some people on here are thinking that a trans woman would go through years, if not decades of denial / inner turmoil and questioning followed by months or years of anxiety & mental trauma for fear of judgement telling all those around them that they would like to transition and risking losing relationships / jobs etc etc ...........
....... all because they want to sneak into the loo or changing room on the off chance they might catch a glimpse of your flabby arse...?
Haha

No. You misunderstand.

Any male person can state they are trans at any time without doing any of that, without having any of those experiences. There is no objective definition. Some transwomen go through all that, but there is no definition that requires any of that, is there?

Which means that effectively any women's space that is inclusive of males with a trans identity is open to "all females plus all males who want access to that space"

The SC judgement is that there is no way to legally define the difference between a space that is open to "all females plus all males who want access to that space" vs a unisex/mixed sex space.

There is no barrier to public and private service providers massively increasing the amount of mixed sex facilities available, but they should be properly labelled as such, with no pretence that they are single sex when anyone of the opposite sex can be included.

There are some contexts where a single sex option is mandated. This can be in parallel with unisex services for those who aren't comfortable in a single-sex service with their own sex, and for anyone who doesn't care aboit the sex of the people they are sharing the space. However, there are some circumstances where the right to a single sex option is enshrined in law as a right for those who want it. Single sex services can only exist if there are no exceptions. If there is one male person in with the females then it is a mixed sex space, no matter what that male person's pronouns / soul / life story or presentation is like. Services which have been allpwing exceptions over the last 15 years have been breaking the law. If you want the law to change, you will need to run a campaign that explicitly lays out the case for totally destroying the concept of a single sex service.

Annoyedone · 16/05/2025 05:21

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:10

@Alucard55
Yes, people keep repeating that same line.
But please someone say what you are ACTUALLY afraid of happening in that situation.
Just judgements no real reasons is all I see.

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would.

1 - women do not owe anyone any explanation as to why they do not want men in their spaces. No is a complete sentence
2 - most trans identifying males are straight men.

monkeyspaw · 16/05/2025 05:34

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 23:10

Become a human barricade for the door to keep men out. I'll go first. If I don't trip over my tits.

😂You're on fire today @ThatCyanCat
thanks for all the laughs.
After tiresome years of this crap one of the most major differences I see is that all the wit and humour is confined to the terfin' side.

Kucinghitam · 16/05/2025 06:05
Starry Eyed Wow GIF by Magic Eden

My heartfelt thanks to @Brigitte33 for so eloquently demonstrating the kindly compassionate sexism, misogyny, ageism, objectification, minimisation of feelings, and disregard for the safety, privacy and dignity of those that Brigitte considers disobedient malfunctioning partially-sentient service bipeds.

#BeKind #OperationLetThemSpeak

Please keep enlightening this board with your effulgent nuggets of exquisite education, Brigitte!

SaggyTitsAndFlabbyArse · 16/05/2025 06:07

The frothing I refer to is in relation to the complete lack of nuance and refusal to see that there is nuance and shades of grey in this debate.

One "nuance" was enough for my bingo card, thanks.

Igneococcus · 16/05/2025 06:20

SaggyTitsAndFlabbyArse · 16/05/2025 06:07

The frothing I refer to is in relation to the complete lack of nuance and refusal to see that there is nuance and shades of grey in this debate.

One "nuance" was enough for my bingo card, thanks.

Nuance now means "you will have to listen to everything I say and accept it without any questions or objections but everything you say I will dismiss as being hateful and bigoted".

EdithStourton · 16/05/2025 06:38

I think Brigitte needs to go on a safeguarding course.

Offer predators a loophole (e.g. you can in women's spaces if you claim to be a woman) and they'll be on it in milliseconds.

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 07:14

EdithStourton · 16/05/2025 06:38

I think Brigitte needs to go on a safeguarding course.

Offer predators a loophole (e.g. you can in women's spaces if you claim to be a woman) and they'll be on it in milliseconds.

He knows, he just doesn't care. The point is that he thinks male wants should trump female needs because he thinks women are support humans for men. It's classic misogyny, especially when he even did the "who'd abuse women as ugly as you anyway" thing.

HereForTheFreeLunch · 16/05/2025 07:36

Shades of #nodebate. Isn't this lecture how it all started 10-15 years back?
This is all they have to fall back on.
In the interim there were all the non-sporty men taking women's places, prison.. school issues.

But now the lectures seem to have gone full circle.
They have nothing else but insults and stfu.

ArabellaScott · 16/05/2025 07:49

Yep. We are now down to purely 'be kind you saggy titted old bitches'. Will this be the winning argument to convince the ECHR? Stay tuned.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/05/2025 07:51

Igneococcus · 16/05/2025 06:20

Nuance now means "you will have to listen to everything I say and accept it without any questions or objections but everything you say I will dismiss as being hateful and bigoted".

There is no nuance in this matter.

Either you keep all males out of women's spaces or you have to let all males into them.

Nobody who comes onto these threads bleating about "nuance" has ever even attempted to explain how a "nuanced" alternative option would work.

If you let Gary who has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria and has had his penis removed and has a gender recognition certificate and ID saying his name is now Sally into women's spaces, you have no way of keeping Barry the pervert in a dress out of them.

MyOliveHelper · 16/05/2025 07:55

It's so funny to come back to this thread after reading the other where people were saying that boys shouldn't wear hair clips.

illinivich · 16/05/2025 08:09

People know that men don't go through a lot to transition, Isla Bryson demonstrated that. It invloves declaring their status, but everything else is personal and what they choose to do.

But trans friendly people are not trying to solve the Bryson dilemma. Its not so much if he is he trans or pretending, its how to embrace men as TW, and continue with safeguarding.

Should bryson have been able to enrol on a beauty course and allowed to wax and tan women? Should he be employed as a female technician, having access to women and the female toilets?

If yes, up to the point he was found guilty of rape, thats abandoning safeguarding.

People who support TWAW need to think what that means. Saying single sex services should be limited need to acknowledge that they are removing safeguarding in all other areas.

Datun · 16/05/2025 08:22

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/05/2025 07:51

There is no nuance in this matter.

Either you keep all males out of women's spaces or you have to let all males into them.

Nobody who comes onto these threads bleating about "nuance" has ever even attempted to explain how a "nuanced" alternative option would work.

If you let Gary who has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria and has had his penis removed and has a gender recognition certificate and ID saying his name is now Sally into women's spaces, you have no way of keeping Barry the pervert in a dress out of them.

And there's nothing to say that Gary isn't a nasty, bullying creep, either.

DeanElderberry · 16/05/2025 08:30

Even if Gary is lovely, when he needs to pee, the place he is safest from attack by horrible scary 'terfs' is the men's loos.