Helen Joyce finally makes it to Women's Hour today from 10am

[Another2Cats]

Just saw this:

Helen Joyce @ HJoyceGender
Morning all! Guess where I'm off to this fine day - Broadcasting House to discuss the @ ForWomenScot judgment, 4 weeks on, on @ BBCWomansHour! Do listen in. I'm looking forward to debunking some shocking disinformation, and reminding an astonished world that Women Have Rights Too

https://x.com/HJoyceGender/status/1922534653166006316

[EDIT]

Yes, I know I put "Women's" instead of "Woman's" in the title

Aaah sorry, my mistake!

I don't think I can bring myself to listen to RMW so I can't help you there 😂

I said this on another thread but I'm just about done listening to these people banging on about trans rights and trampling on women because it just gives me the rage. We're hardly asking for much and yet we can't even have that. No respect for women at all - and the response to the Supreme Court judgement has been a disgrace, just underlining what we knew all along, that people don't actually believe that women matter.

This is why I can't listen to RMW - I'll be ranting all night 😂🤦🏻‍♀️

Wow. Another indication of how far things have come in a few years ...

Reading this thread I think there's light at the end of the tunnel. Since young male children are acceptable in women's toilets as long as they are accompanied by their mothers, the same solution could be proposed to TW....

This reminds me of a sign in my dentist when I was a kid, promising free dental care to patients over 75 who were accompanied by both parents.

They might not get caught.

But if they fuck up and have an accident, they certainly have to take responsibility for their own choices.

Wandering off into the women's toilet and then losing your job for workplace harassment and failing to adhere to work health and safety, applies here.

It's shocking Helen had to do that and the fact that she did is a testament to her determination and just general wonderfulness.

Those audiobook production companies should be ashamed at their attempts to silence women's voices.

Nobody thinks ALL transwomen are manipulative rapists, but how do you know which ones are until you are actually being attacked? Or is that the price women should be prepared to pay so that some men don’t get offended?

I hear you!

I think it’s important to use clear language for 2 main reasons,

1. A lot of people don’t understand that a transwoman is a male and a transman is a female. I think the use of MtF and FtM also muddies the waters as no one can change sex so no one transitions from male to female. Gender and sex being used interchangeably by the same people who tell us that sex and gender are different. Clear language is therefore crucial.

2. The more we give in to the pleas to be kind and respectful of preferred pronouns and not calling a transwoman a man the more difficult it is to maintain other boundaries such as single sex spaces. The SC ruling’s use of the word “incoherent” was spot on. Even if I don’t mind about who pees in the cubicle beside me I know that single sex exemptions are not just about toilets. We can’t say that a TW can be a woman in the WI but not in a woman’s prison. Someone is either a woman or not, there are no degrees of being a woman.

So from a place of #bekind a few years ago I am firmly in the camp of giving up absolutely no ground. The TRAs wanted #nodebate and total capitulation at a time that a lot of women just wanted one female only rape crisis centre or one female only lesbian group. TRAs have hounded and bullied women out of jobs, targeted and threatened businesses into cancelling bookings for female only events and used their political powers to withhold funding from female only service providers. They get violent at the prospect of any female only spaces.

So I won’t be emotionally blackmailed into being kind or thinking about the feelings of men. I will not spend time worrying about where the men will pee ( as long as it’s not in the women’s toilets).

Helen’s explanation was so clear and articulate I can only hope that her argument landed with some listeners.

Yes, this was what I was thinking of. What is it about transwomen, in particular, that means they can't be expected to obey the rules? Why is behaving appropriately so difficult for them? Outwith the trans/gender crowd, most men do behave decently and obey social rules. The ones who don't are the men everyone — men as well as women — avoid where possible. They are not safe to be around because they display no social responsibility, just as people who habitually and gratuitously break the speed limit are drivers that most people disapprove of and avoid. Why are transwomen the antisocial boy racers of the gender world?

In particular, why can't trans-identified males behave with decency towards the sex they wish to emulate? Why do so many of them appear to hold women in contempt?

This is rhetorical because of course we all know the reasons: Men's Rights Activism, Malaga, porn, fetishism, misogyny. But it's a useful way to reframe the argument. No problem with the way you dress, sir, but why are you so determined to disobey the rules (and the law) in order to access women's loos and changing rooms? What were you ever doing, thinking it was okay for you to be there in the first place? Why are you behaving in such an anti-social manner?

Great interview! Brisk clear and to-the-point answers. She might be a bit too brisk to land on some of the be-kinders but never mind. She certainly did a neat job taking apart RMW's claims.

And what about all the women who can't go out/ go swimming/ go to the gym/ join women only clubs/ teams/ go to refuges/ rape crisis centres because they can't be in a space with males? Spare a thought for them.

Oh I so want to post a gif from a certain horror film, but it would probably get me banned

Exceptionally well put!

Your stepdaughter will then be in the same situation that many women and girls have faced over the past few years. Many women and girls who have experienced sexual abuse cannot share toilets and changing rooms with men due to their severe trauma. Why should we prioritise trans-identified men over highly vulnerable girls and women? When was the women's plight ever acknowledged by trans activists and the organisations supporting trans people? Vulnerable women and girls were told they were bigoted and needed to "reframe their trauma" (quote: Mridul Wadhwa). Where was any compassion for all the women and girls who have had to self-exclude before the SC judgement?

I am sorry for your stepdaughter, but she has been badly let down by Stonewall and various other organisations, not by women. She should have never been misled to believe she could to use the toilet "of her choice".

I've been posting 'Pronouns are Rohypnol' all over the threads on twitter today in the hope that Nuala might read it.

It might explain to her why her anxiety levels were obviously through the roof today while Helen was so calm and collected. it could be a lightbulb moment for her.

The article is six years old now (where does time go) but is more relevant than ever, especially for women like Nuala.

The article was originally posted on Mumsnet and the poster received a seven day ban for it. We've come a long way.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Edited to add the reason Woman's Hour are so woeful is because they've avoided the subject. We all know that the BBC have operated an unofficial blacklist. Helen used to appear on press previews regularly, after she published 'Trans' she was disappeared. They don't understand the arguments, they don't know the court cases, they are ignorant. This is what happens when you don't report impartially and listen to LGBTQ networks within your organisation. Tim Davie has been talking about trust in the BBC today .. maybe stop calling rapists 'she' Tim, just a thought.

I liken the gaps under toilet doors as being like seat belts - a little bit uncomfortable occasionally, but could save your life in an emergency.

Gaps under doors with some sort of chicken wire (or similar) in the gap to stop the straying camera fetishists would be ideal!

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall in the production gallery this morning. I bet it was rammed with editorial types panicking at the utter straightforwardness of Helen. It's like having someone on Songs of Praise saying 'there is no God.'

It's a brilliant book.Has such clarity of thought and covers so much.

Helen Joyce is a very effective communicator.
People use the phrase I CVs and covering letters, but this is what it means.

The absolute forthright clarity won't go down well with some listeners. For others pennies will be droping here there and everywhere. and i don't know what's going to happen, but I believe that interview has changed things. I've been reading and thinking about this since late 2017 or early 2018. There have been many watershed moments. I might be over reacting because WH just isn't that big a deal, but i think this will be one of those moments.

I had a post deleted a few years back for using the term Helen used on radio 4 - how times have changed thank god.

Just interrupting in despair, but not exactly any great surprise, having opened the latest Private Eye and found a bunch of letters screaming BE KIND after the last issue's very, very cautious dip into the SC judgment.

God, it’s all so much bloody hard work.

PE might have printed the frothing letters quite deliberately to show up the writers; they do that sometimes.

I am. I'm sparing a thought for everyone.