Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowlings latest tweet. Just wow!

1000 replies

Imnobody4 · 03/05/2025 20:36

I've copied it in full.
https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1918747065460420745?t=bPXQ2pY9VAwPPqFR26_vvw&s=19

In light of recent open letters from academia and the arts criticising the UK's Supreme Court ruling on sex-based rights, it's possibly worth remembering that nobody sane believes, or has ever believed, that humans can change sex, or that binary sex isn't a material fact. These letters do nothing but remind us of what we know only too well: that pretending to believe these things has become an elitist badge of virtue.

I often wonder whether the signatories of such letters have to quieten their consciences before publicly boosting a movement intent on removing women's and girls' rights, which bullies gay people who admit openly they don't want opposite sex partners, and campaigns for the continued sterilisation of vulnerable and troubled kids. Do they feel any qualms at all while chanting the foundational lie of their religion: Trans Women are Women, Trans Men are Men?

I have no idea. All I know for sure is that it's a complete waste of time telling a gender activist that their favourite slogan is self-contradictory nonsense, because the lie is the whole point. They're not repeating it because it's true - they know full well it's not true - but because they believe they can make it true, sort of, if they force everyone else to agree. The foundational lie functions as both catechism and crucifix: the set form of words that obviates the tedious necessity of coming up with your own explanation of why you're one of the Godly, and an exorcist's weapon which will defeat demonic facts and reason, and promote the advance of righteous pseudoscience and sophistry.

Some argue that signatories of these sorts of letters are motivated by fear: fear for their careers, of course, but also fear of their co-religionists, who include angry, narcissistic men who threaten and sometimes enact violence on non-believers; back-stabbing colleagues ever ready to report wrongthink; the online shamers and doxxers and rape threateners, and, of course, the influential zealots in the upper echelons of liberal professions (though we can quibble whether they're actually liberal at all, given the draconian authoritarianism that seems to have engulfed so many). Gender ideology could give medieval Catholicism a run for its money when it comes to punishing heretics, so isn't it common sense to keep your head down and recite your Hail Mulvaneys?

But before we start feeling too sorry for any cowed and fearful TWAWites who're TERFy on the sly, let's not forget what a high proportion of them have willingly snatched up pitchforks and torches to join the inquisitional purges. Call me lacking in proper womanly sympathy, but I find the harm they've enabled and in some cases directly championed or funded - the hounding and shaming of vulnerable women, the forced loss of livelihoods, the unregulated medical experiment on minors - tends to dry up my tears at source.

History is littered with the debris of irrational and harmful belief systems that once seemed unassailable. As Orwell said, 'Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.' Gender ideology may have embedded itself deeply into our institutions, where it's been imposed, top-down, on the supposedly unenlightened, but it is not invulnerable.

Court losses are starting to stack up. The condescension, overreach, entitlement and aggression of gender activists is eroding public support daily. Women are fighting back and winning significant victories. Sporting bodies have miraculously awoken from their slumber and remembered that males tend to be larger, stronger and faster than females. Parts of the medical establishment are questioning cutting healthy breasts off teenaged girls is really the best way to fix their mental health problems.

One seemingly harmless little white lie - Trans Women are Women, Trans Men are Men - uttered in most cases without any real thought at all, and a few short years later, people who think of themselves as supremely virtuous are typing 'yes, rapists' pronouns are absolutely the hill I'll die on,' rubbing shoulders with those who call for women to be hanged and decapitated for wanting all-female rape crisis centres, and furiously denying clear and mounting evidence of the greatest medical scandal in a century.

I wonder if they ever ask themselves how they got here, and I wonder whether any of them will ever feel shame.

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1918747065460420745?s=19&t=bPXQ2pY9VAwPPqFR26_vvw

OP posts:
Thread gallery
36
StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 02:30

Gymnopedie · 04/05/2025 01:13

I find JK and the court ruling to be transphobic

And I find the repeated words, threats and actions of the trans rights activists and their disciples to be deeply, deeply female-phobic.

Females don't march with placards saying the only good trans is a dead trans. Females don't march with placards saying shit on the head of a trans, females don't...need I go on?

I don't know what your last para means. Whoever says anything like that is just being an extremist. And yes, the trans activists are extremists, too. What they've said about women is utterly unacceptable - but then, I find both sides of this debate to be extremist and unreasonable, including both the TRAs and JK Rowling.

That's my point: In this debate, there are hardly any reasonable voices.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 04/05/2025 02:32

facts6754 · 03/05/2025 22:18

@Dymaxion Yes, non-cisgender women. Do you really think that predators would pretend to be women to assault women? No, they’d just walk right in the women’s toilets and do it.

Except that there's a documented case in Scotland of a predator pretending to be a woman to assault a ten-year-old girl.

Nice try, but no cigar.

thirdfiddle · 04/05/2025 02:33

There’s no such thing as actually being trans, there’s only a belief that you are transgender?

Suppose for the sake of argument that science discovers a physical identifier for 'gender'. Suppose let's say that women and transwomen have little pink tags inside their ears, and men and transmen have blue ones.

Would that mean there is actually such a thing as being trans? Yes and no. You've discovered an interesting new medical feature that triggers feelings of dysphoria about one's sex. You could if you wished define and diagnose transness by checking what sex someone is and the colour of their tag. (iirc some scientists once floated a possibility of a physical scan that might detect transness and the transactivist community hastily shut them down).

It wouldn't make biological sex magically cease existing, or cease being important. The colour of the tag in someone's ear has no relevance to who should be in which sport, or who needs what medical treatment, or who can get who pregnant. Or who I want to share a changing room with, because that's based on bodies not little tags in the ear.

Are they really transgender? Well, in the sense they have a pink tag. Are they really the opposite sex to what they are physically? Still not. That's where the belief bit comes in. Whether it's because they like wearing dresses, or because they have some subtle difference in brain structure detectable on average postmortem, or because they say so, or because they have little pink tags in their ears - they may be transgender in the sense that they have that property, but believing that makes them somehow the opposite sex is just that, a belief. And not one I share.

But yeah, if I was to lay a bet, my guess is more meme than gene.

TheCourseOfTheRiverChanged · 04/05/2025 02:40

Lavender2015 · 03/05/2025 22:17

It wasn’t necessarily ‘anti-catholic rhetoric’, if you have a quick skim of the history of Catholicism you cannot avoid the brutal torture and violence the church inflicted on non-believers across Europe in the 15th and 16th centuries. An uncomfortable truth doesn’t make it any less true and make you any less entitled to hold your belief in their teachings.

Yes, I know I'm being pedantic and it doesn't alter JKR's central argument, but it's actually early modern Catholicism that provides the best analogy: the paranoid, reactionary couter-reformation (that's when Malleus Malfericum was published, too).
The medieval church wasn't so centralised or unifom and women exercised significant authority in some times and places.

Chickensky · 04/05/2025 02:49

thirdfiddle · 04/05/2025 02:33

There’s no such thing as actually being trans, there’s only a belief that you are transgender?

Suppose for the sake of argument that science discovers a physical identifier for 'gender'. Suppose let's say that women and transwomen have little pink tags inside their ears, and men and transmen have blue ones.

Would that mean there is actually such a thing as being trans? Yes and no. You've discovered an interesting new medical feature that triggers feelings of dysphoria about one's sex. You could if you wished define and diagnose transness by checking what sex someone is and the colour of their tag. (iirc some scientists once floated a possibility of a physical scan that might detect transness and the transactivist community hastily shut them down).

It wouldn't make biological sex magically cease existing, or cease being important. The colour of the tag in someone's ear has no relevance to who should be in which sport, or who needs what medical treatment, or who can get who pregnant. Or who I want to share a changing room with, because that's based on bodies not little tags in the ear.

Are they really transgender? Well, in the sense they have a pink tag. Are they really the opposite sex to what they are physically? Still not. That's where the belief bit comes in. Whether it's because they like wearing dresses, or because they have some subtle difference in brain structure detectable on average postmortem, or because they say so, or because they have little pink tags in their ears - they may be transgender in the sense that they have that property, but believing that makes them somehow the opposite sex is just that, a belief. And not one I share.

But yeah, if I was to lay a bet, my guess is more meme than gene.

That's part of the problem surely. To reduce kids to a "pink" or "blue" tag (I know it's hypothetical)x but why why why? Gender (pink is for girls and blue is for boys) is a societal construction. You get a to choose how to play with those as you grow up. Biology is a fact born a boy or a girl. I am Not a pink girl and have ever been, my son is not a traditional footballer "blue' boy. Gender does not equal biology. We women have fought so long for gender oppression to no longer exist.

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 02:50

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/05/2025 00:03

No, they’re just men. There’s no value judgement.

While trans women can obviously never be biological women, to me there's a big difference between a regular man and a man who's had his male genitalia removed, has undergone lengthy hormone treatment, and has also transitioned socially. Not a biological woman, no, but good enough. That's my view. I understand others differ.

But it seems harsh for someone to go through all that and then be considered the same as a regular man. For example, if they used the men's loos after all that transitioning, they'd probably get beaten up at some point, quite possibly very badly and even killed.

I know that many people on JK's side of the debate don't believe that being trans is a real thing, but I do believe that. I think you can be born with a personality/brain/mind/soul that's very much more masculine or feminine than your biological sex. (Or whatever it is that leads trans people to want to be the opposite sex.) I don't know what makes them that way, but I believe that it's a genuine feeling. They say that it's extremely psychologically uncomfortable and distressing to feel that you are one sex but to have the body of the other, and I have sympathy for that. It must be awful.

Of course, there are bad actors, like there are everywhere in life, and that's a problem.

Bottom line: JK doesn't believe that there are genuine trans people who live their lives in great distress if they can't transition and live and be accepted as the opposite sex, and I do believe that. I'm disappointed that she seems to not recognise their existence and their struggles, or that such people are no threat at all to biological women.

But I still like her; I think she's a very good person whose views might be informed by her having experienced sexual assault. She doesn't seem to be the kind of person who would ever want to be unkind to vulnerable people, and genuine transpeople are vulnerable people. I see her as a good person who has a blind spot when it comes to genuine trans people. (As opposed to the crazed TRAs who want self-ID and transwomen in female sports etc. who I think are insane.)

Cnon · 04/05/2025 03:03

SquirrelSoShiny · 03/05/2025 20:41

I applaud her as ever. JKR is our queen ❤️

She's keeping it real!

You go lady!

SpidersAreShitheads · 04/05/2025 03:06

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 02:50

While trans women can obviously never be biological women, to me there's a big difference between a regular man and a man who's had his male genitalia removed, has undergone lengthy hormone treatment, and has also transitioned socially. Not a biological woman, no, but good enough. That's my view. I understand others differ.

But it seems harsh for someone to go through all that and then be considered the same as a regular man. For example, if they used the men's loos after all that transitioning, they'd probably get beaten up at some point, quite possibly very badly and even killed.

I know that many people on JK's side of the debate don't believe that being trans is a real thing, but I do believe that. I think you can be born with a personality/brain/mind/soul that's very much more masculine or feminine than your biological sex. (Or whatever it is that leads trans people to want to be the opposite sex.) I don't know what makes them that way, but I believe that it's a genuine feeling. They say that it's extremely psychologically uncomfortable and distressing to feel that you are one sex but to have the body of the other, and I have sympathy for that. It must be awful.

Of course, there are bad actors, like there are everywhere in life, and that's a problem.

Bottom line: JK doesn't believe that there are genuine trans people who live their lives in great distress if they can't transition and live and be accepted as the opposite sex, and I do believe that. I'm disappointed that she seems to not recognise their existence and their struggles, or that such people are no threat at all to biological women.

But I still like her; I think she's a very good person whose views might be informed by her having experienced sexual assault. She doesn't seem to be the kind of person who would ever want to be unkind to vulnerable people, and genuine transpeople are vulnerable people. I see her as a good person who has a blind spot when it comes to genuine trans people. (As opposed to the crazed TRAs who want self-ID and transwomen in female sports etc. who I think are insane.)

I’m too tired to write a long reply but your first assertion is wrong, and maybe that’s why you’ve been so vehemently defending their inclusion. That’s a genuine thought btw, not intended to be shady.

The stats vary but only about 5 - 13% of trans women ever have bottom surgery. To flip those stats, that means that between 87% and 95% of trans women always retain their penises and male bodies. And they’re in women’s spaces - changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, domestic refuges.

When you couple that startling fact with the stats on the number of sex offenders within the trans community - it’s higher proportionally than the general male population - and you can see just one of the problems.

There is a very real danger to women. And that’s the issue.

By the way, just to be clear, of course not all trans women are predators. Many are fine. But a very significant proportion are a problem and as women, we don’t deserve to be exposed to more risk.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 04/05/2025 03:09

And Lia T. had not fully transitioned. I agree that the swimmers should not have had to share with her

You mean with him. Lia Thomas is a man.

Onetwothreebadknee · 04/05/2025 03:10

Brilliant, she is just amazing and has stood strong and unwavering all the way!
I do wonder in years and years time how we will look back on this period of history? The fable of ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’ comes much to mind.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:14

StuckUpPrincess · 03/05/2025 23:56

I find JK and the court ruling to be transphobic. While I don't think that transwomen should compete in women's sports, and I think that only trans people who have obtained GRCs should be allowed to use the women's loos and changing rooms, I also think it's awful to treat transpeople as if they don't exist. And that's what the UK Supreme Court ruling does. If someone who has fully transitioned can't use the women's loos and changing rooms, where are they meant to go? They'll get beaten up and harassed if they use the men's. But no one seems to care about that. They do exist and always have, and lots of transwomen will have used the loos with you and you're none the wiser.

I think what it comes down to is that JK and people who agree with her do not believe that there is any such thing as a genuine transwoman. That is, someone who feels that they are a woman inside, transitions to be female as far as is possible, just wants to continue with their lives, and has no interest whatsoever in doing anything harmful towards anyone.

JK and her followers seem to believe that every transwoman is some pervert in disguise and that they can't possibly be genuine.

I strongly disagree.

‘I think what it comes down to is that JK and people who agree with her do not believe that there is any such thing as a genuine transwoman’

This is the only true thing in your whole post. Try staying in touch with reality, it’ll help you understand that people can’t change sex and that TIM’s are men.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:18

Lostcat · 04/05/2025 00:18

this woman is so very wrong headed. . She knows not the harm she does.

Oh dear, another prophet 🙄

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:20

Lostcat · 04/05/2025 00:23

No one has an issue with material reality.

Only the people who have been sold the lie that they can change sex, and the TRA’s that cheer them on.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:24

Lostcat · 04/05/2025 00:31

The SC were simply interpreting a legislative act of parliament.

JKR is an extremely ignorant person who spouts a lot of harmful, ideological crap which comes from a place of prejudice. I agree with almost nothing that she says.

I’m sure she’ll be devastated to learn that someone she’s never heard, of disagrees with her perfectly rational and biologically factual views. Then she’ll have another cigar. On her yacht. That she bought with her own money, which she earned by becoming one of the most successful authors and all round fabulous woman on the planet.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:29

woolens · 04/05/2025 00:33

I feel that she's got this wrong. Many people do genuinely believe that humans can change sex, because they've been informed of that by authority figures talking about "sex changes" and the like.

Even for those who are a bit more aware and know that this is just cosmetic surgery and hormone medication that doesn't change anyone's sex, many still believe "trans women are women" and, if they remember, "trans men are men" because they've been fed the born-in-the-wrong-body and the female-brain-in-male-body narratives, again by authority figures.

This is also why, for some who peak on self-id, they hold onto the "true trans" idea for so long, because they don't want to let go of those false perspectives that are so deeply embedded.

What has she got wrong? A genuine belief in something doesn’t make it true. Some people believe the earth is flat, that isn’t true either. We should never have pandered to this insidious, regressive, homophobic ideology in the first place.

I think what you’re saying is that she should just shut up. I think you’ll find that ship has sailed.

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 03:29

SpidersAreShitheads · 04/05/2025 03:06

I’m too tired to write a long reply but your first assertion is wrong, and maybe that’s why you’ve been so vehemently defending their inclusion. That’s a genuine thought btw, not intended to be shady.

The stats vary but only about 5 - 13% of trans women ever have bottom surgery. To flip those stats, that means that between 87% and 95% of trans women always retain their penises and male bodies. And they’re in women’s spaces - changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, domestic refuges.

When you couple that startling fact with the stats on the number of sex offenders within the trans community - it’s higher proportionally than the general male population - and you can see just one of the problems.

There is a very real danger to women. And that’s the issue.

By the way, just to be clear, of course not all trans women are predators. Many are fine. But a very significant proportion are a problem and as women, we don’t deserve to be exposed to more risk.

I wasn't aware that the surgery rates were so low. It makes sense considering that it's major surgery, which is frightening and painful, with a high risk of post-surgical complications.

I know there are bad actors, but it doesn't seem fair that harmless trans people are lumped in with them and told that they can't use female loos and changing rooms because of them.

Anyway, it doesn't matter now, because the SC has said that only biological females can use female loos, so even if they had had the surgery and a GRC, they still wouldn't be allowed. (I know nobody's checking people as they go into the loos, but a TW is presumably putting herself at risk of prosecution if she uses the female loos and is challenged, even if she's had surgery and has a GRC.)

I suppose trans people will just have to try clothes on at home, always make sure there's a disabled loo or a unisex loo, and change in a loo cubicle of their bio sex if they want to go swimming.

As to prisons, wards, and shelters, I don't think transwomen who have intact male genitalia should be allowed in those spaces, and they should be on permanent hormone therapy as well. I do think that a fully transitioned TW can be abused and assaulted by a male partner, who is likely to be stronger than the TW and who would also have the potential to rape her as he would have a penis and she would not.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:32

Lostcat · 04/05/2025 00:50

Do you truly believe transgenderism is not an ideological concept?

the word is not “transgenderism”. And when you say “ideological concept”- what does that mean to you?

‘when you say “ideological concept”- what does that mean to you?’

In simple terms it’s a load of crap made up by men to control women. It’s not a new concept, they’ve just slapped a different name on it.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:34

Lostcat · 04/05/2025 01:06

Look I know you just want to argue. I can’t be arsed with that - what’s the point?

The only way forward through this toxic mess is to find points of consensus and understanding, rather than just shouting at each other online.

The poster asked me if I seriously think “transgenderism” is not an “ideological concept”. I can’t answer that without understanding what she means exactly . I am curious. Does she mean to say that being trans is not real?

Edited

Of course being trans is not real, people aren’t born in the wrong body, and if they think they are it’s a mental health issue.

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 03:41

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:34

Of course being trans is not real, people aren’t born in the wrong body, and if they think they are it’s a mental health issue.

I believe trans people when they say that they feel they've been born in the wrong body. Maybe that's not a real thing, but I believe that they feel so strongly that they want to be the opposite sex that that's how it feels to them. And I don't believe it has to be a mental-health issue. I believe that some people do genuinely want to be the opposite sex that badly, because they just do. Born that way. And the truth is that we don't know why some people feel that way. But I believe them.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:41

Chickensky · 04/05/2025 01:13

I agree with this. At the point when women's rights are being overridden, for language changes on facts of biology, jobs affected, women only groups being not able to meet, crisis centres affected, hospital incident, it went too far. Why not have a group / campaign of transwomen who campaign for their legal rights which does not erode women's rights.
To PP y saying that transwomen are persecuted into a 3rd sex I don't understand the need to try and grab hold of women's rights. Yes, it is a minority community (but with a very big platform). Biological women have for centuries been persecuted into the 2nd sex, and if as a community you had any sort of DNA of this one would understand that this is something we fight for fiercely . I don't understand why there is no fight to create a trans infrastructure?.

‘I don't understand why there is no fight to create a trans infrastructure?.’

Because it’s never been what they wanted, the aim has always been to get women to comply, to dominate them in the ultimate way by completely removing their existence as a sex class.

In essence, it’s them saying, ‘we’re not only better than you when we’re men, we’re better than you when we’re women’, to understand it you have to appreciate that some men have a visceral hatred for women, that’s why they kill us.

And then you have the social media circus that’s dragged in mentally unwell young people.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:43

Lostcat · 04/05/2025 01:16

I disagree with almost every thing she has said in this shared post. I would barely know where to start.

She has contributed absolutely nothing of any “good” or positivity for me as a woman.

I consider her to be a very disturbing and problematic person

Edited

How sad. Oh well. Never mind.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:46

Lostcat · 04/05/2025 01:29

If you are really interested in the question “what is a woman?”-
Why don’t you start with Simone de Beauvoir, the Second Sex. It’s one of the foundational works of feminism. ( that’s what we are all supposed to be here right? Feminists? )
It’s 894 pages long. Because the answer to that question isn’t simple.

I don’t believe the question was being framed in a philosophical sense. It’s an adult human female btw.

thirdfiddle · 04/05/2025 03:46

Eh chicken, it was just a shorthand for suppose evidence were discovered showing that proclivity to identify as transgender had a physical basis, was diagnosable with a physical test, or that there was some hidden physical feature that transwomen and women have in common.

It still wouldn't mean men were women. It wouldn't make biological sex any less real or relevant. It wouldn't make it any more valid to impose stereotypes on either sex either.

The poster asked:
There’s no such thing as actually being trans, there’s only a belief that you are transgender?

I'm saying it doesn't matter if your feelings of dysphoria/belief that you in some sense should be the opposite sex is just an idea you've got hooked into, or if there's some physical feature of your brain that predisposes you to these feelings. You're still not the sex you wish you were. Sex still exists and is still real and relevant.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:48

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 03:41

I believe trans people when they say that they feel they've been born in the wrong body. Maybe that's not a real thing, but I believe that they feel so strongly that they want to be the opposite sex that that's how it feels to them. And I don't believe it has to be a mental-health issue. I believe that some people do genuinely want to be the opposite sex that badly, because they just do. Born that way. And the truth is that we don't know why some people feel that way. But I believe them.

That’s nice that you believe them, and you may think you’re being kind but you’re not. Affirming someone’s delusions isn’t helpful and actually makes them worse. Reality is the antidote to this insidious ideology, not affirmation.

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 03:49

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:41

‘I don't understand why there is no fight to create a trans infrastructure?.’

Because it’s never been what they wanted, the aim has always been to get women to comply, to dominate them in the ultimate way by completely removing their existence as a sex class.

In essence, it’s them saying, ‘we’re not only better than you when we’re men, we’re better than you when we’re women’, to understand it you have to appreciate that some men have a visceral hatred for women, that’s why they kill us.

And then you have the social media circus that’s dragged in mentally unwell young people.

I assume there aren't enough trans people to justify the funds to create a trans infrastructure. (Guessing you mean trans loos everywhere, trans DV shelters, hospital wards, changing rooms, and prisons.) The money would never be allocated for such, so that's probably why lobbying for that doesn't take place, not that the trans community is full of men who hate us. I know that there's a sub-section of men who really hate women, but they tend to be the Andrew Tate/MGTOW faction.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.