How to talk to 5yo DS about non-binary / trans teacher

[NorthernLoon]

DS is in reception. We received a message from the school recently advising that one of his teachers was leaving, and welcoming that teacher's replacement. The new teacher's title is "Mx" which Google tells me is a non-gendered title. So far so good.
Today DS met the new teacher for the first time and has come home saying the teacher "looks a bit like a woman, but not really, and has a man's voice". He didn't ask any specific questions about that, so I didn't offer any explanation. (And I'm aware I might be jumping to the wrong conclusion - could just be a slightly masculine looking woman with a 40-a-day habit for all I know!)
But assuming the teacher is a TW, how do I talk about that with a 5yo?! I don't want him to get in trouble at school. But I'm not happy to teach him a belief system i don't agree with.
He knows basic male/female anatomy, the correct names for private parts, and that he is a boy because he has a male body. He's gone through various sparkly/pink phases, and my sister is a fairly tomboyish PE teacher. So we've talked in very basic terms about social stereotypes around "gender" and how they don't really mean anything.
But where do I go from here? He's a gentle little boy - he would never want to hurt anyone, and he hates getting told off. But he would absolutely go into school and say "My mum says Mx ... is really a man". And my personal beliefs aside, I don't think that's helpful for anyone.

I think you are mightily misguided on the trans policies at many schools, which have indeed penalised children for misgendering. How far I'd be interested as a parent depends on the policy at the school and the extent to which Mary minds/does not mind children referring to Mary as he/sir.

Young children will ask about Mary's sex. They will refer to Mary as 'he' on the regular. That's no problem as long Mary is comfortable and open to being correctly referred to as he/him. As he must be, in a primary school.

You are 'being kind' by using preferred pronouns. That is fine for an adult - you understand absolutely the nature of Mary's sex and gender.

Young children do not understand the very adult notion that 'we are all lying about a fundamental fact of Mary's existence.' Young children need a very clear message on sex- it's binary, it's immutable. Because that is true. And it's so very important that we teach children the truth about this basic biological fact.

Mary is a man and we love that Mary dresses and presents as he feels best. He is a man. You may call him sir.

How many trans policies enumerating the ways small children should be punished for "misgendering" a trans or non binary teacher have you read?

FFS 5 year olds call their teachers Mum, Dad, granny, all the time. Most teachers of 5 year olds do not make a fuss about this. Most teachers would only be upset by deliberate "misgendering", for example a parent telling their child to call Mary "Sir" because of they (the parents) political beliefs. I believe the Forstater judgement said something along the lines that deliberate and repetitive misgendering in a work environment (by an adult) would be likely to amount to harassment and against the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

"Mary" was originally "Mike" who dressed in a non conforming way for a number of years. After announcing they would go by "Mary" after the Summer break, they continued to answer to "Mike" or "MikeMary" for a number of years until the children who had known Mike had moved through the school. No one took offence, no one was punished.

Also, no one has to dress up as a woman "in order to" access young children. Males are allowed to teach you know.

And I keep reading on here ' oh but we're not transphobic '.... It's infuriating. No one even knows if this teacher is trans and what does it matter if they are,?!

Has he (or you) been asked to say anything which is untrue? Do you think he’s unsafe? If not I’d crack on and ignore it l. I would not, however, lie to him or be dishonest.

Yes, many, many schools took on policies from Stonewall, Mermaids, and the rest and children are not allowed to use the correct, reality-based pronoun in school, for a trans teacher or a trans child. (As if there are trans primary children! What the hell were people thinking?) How many have of these policies have I read? Dozens.

Young children do not misgender anyone. Misgendering itself is made-up, politically-motivated term invented by TRAs. If the children called Mary 'sir' as their norm, that is not misgendering. Calling Mary 'miss' would be incorrectly identifying Mary's sex. It would be taking part in an adult-based lie that they do not understand. The suggestion that children referring to Mary in line with observed reality is somehow wrong - seriously, think it through. That's insane. We are supposed to teach children the truth, and it gets no more real than the reality of their sexed bodies.

Children are not mistaking the teacher for Mum if they call her that. They are simply used to saying Mum when they need help/attention/etc. At no level do they think the teacher is Mum. Your example makes no sense.

The point of calling Mary 'miss' is to confuse children about the nature of Mary's biological reality.

Where your last paragraph comes from I have no idea. I never said that a trans-identified male needed to dress up to access children. My male colleagues undertake the same background checks and safeguarding training that I do.

A trans-identified male who is comfortable with children calling him 'he' and 'sir', in line with reality, poses no extra threat, either. Indeed, it is a refreshing break with societally-enforced gender norms to see a man in a dress. As long as the children know he's a man. And their language is not policed in line with TRA-influenced policy.

Trans people deserve protection in employment, including in schools. This does not give them - or you - the right to demand that children participate in the fantasy that they have changed sex.

I use Ms for this very reason. Mx is more about concealing your gender is it not? Except it has the opposite effect - it usually denotes someone who is either trans or non—binary.

I would like you to link me an example policy from a primary school that makes it clear that infant age children will be punished for "misgendering" a trans or non binary teacher. Shouldn't be hard if you have read dozens.

I'd suggest you start with NEU 'advice for trans educators' as this is the basis for many policies. Skip down to the names/pronouns section, and that injunction against 'misgendering' - including by students - is pretty much the wording in many documents.

I hereby give you up as a TRA, though. I hope you continue to dissuade children from wrongthink. I'll keep trying to stop you.

There's no such thing as wrong think. However we all use politenesses to grease the social wheel and it's not impossible to do so. I don't call an obese person fat to their face, though I notice it. I don't scoff at Teresa's boob job and tell her she really has small tits. I don't remind Maureen that her blonde hair is fooling noone and she's really a brunette. I don't laugh at Joan who uses Ms and remind her that really she is married and I will call her Mrs because of that.

People may lose the rights to these niceties if they behave badly and stop deserving my respect.

Your version of being a TRA appears to mean anyone who doesn't fundamentally reject the idea that trans people should be allowed to live the way they want.

If TRA includes thinking a teacher who is quietly getting on with teaching children, not talking about trans rights or their identity or proselytising, should be allowed to say that they feel more comfortable using a name and pronoun that they did not have at birth, and request (not demand nor punish those who make mistakes) these are used, then I probably am one.

I think like Stonewall you are getting ahead of the law if you are advising that it's best practice to out people publically, regardless of their wishes, or insist on "correct" pronouns regardless of the conduct of the trans person in question.

Didn’t Ms do just that?

I assume so. I was literally just contributing experience of a non-trans person using Mx because it seemed relevant, not encouraging its use or suggesting that Ms doesn’t do that very thing.

@Tummybanana children should not be asked to validate an adult’s made up identity. Nor should they be asked to pretend that they don’t know what sex their teacher is.

I don't believe trans people are monsters but I believe their belief that you can be born in the wrong body is extremely dangerous to young children as is their belief in sex stereotypes - that girls who like football and science must really be boys and boys who like dresses and pink must really be girls. I would be deeply concerned that anyone who believes this was teaching my very young child who also currently believes in Father Christmas and the tooth fairy.

If the teacher looks a bit like a man or woman but not really etc...surely that doesn't mean they aren't a good teacher?
If your kid asks the teacher 'are you a man or a woman?' then I guess they'd have to answer somehow, but otherwise I don't see why it would really come up in a classroom of year 1s.

Absolutely this. If this happened in my primary I would be furious. When they get to secondary they appear to be inundated with questionnaires about race, sexuality, bullying & more recently gender issues. Each time I refuse for my child to part take in this woke, die shite. My child identifies as a young person trying to learn multiple subjects.

How is a child or indeed anyone supposed to pronounce Mx?

I would also remove my child. I’m not lying to them about someone’s sex and I am not having my child used to prop up someone’s delusional thinking.

Imagine if the situation were about race!

I’ve never even heard of Mx as a title.

I’m speechless that someone would say this to a child.

It’s pronounced ‘mix’.

If the situation were about race, a similar example would be a teacher who recently converted to Islam changing their first and last name to reflect that. And the equivalent would be you all saying ‘I’m taking my DC out of school so he doesn’t teach my children that ideology, and I’m not calling him his new name.’

That would be bigoted. I agree with the poster who said the Supreme Court ruling has got you all far too excited, and you seem to have forgotten that trans people are still deserving of respect and dignity. Calling someone by their preferred name and pronoun is not a ‘slippery slope’, it’s basic respect and human decency.

i am so sad reading this

why can’t a teacher call themselves Mary and put on a dress if they feel like it , how does it effect your kids education if they call their teacher mr Mrs mix or whatever? , 5 year olds are beautifully accepting and don’t care

I am a gay teacher , I am not promoting or pressing any ideology neither is anyone else

“ I don’t know and does it matter? “ is what you say to your son but I bet you anything he never asks again and does not care

So Mx is like a music specialist or something?

The problem with this in primary school is kids are just learning that being a boy or being a girl isn't about how long your hair is or what toys and games you like, it's just whether you have a penis or you don't (in 5 yr old accessible terms). So a teacher that adopts opposite sex stereotypes and says this makes him not a man could be undermining that learning. Hopefully he won't say anything and just get on with teaching them.

I'd have a think about how to answer any questions DC might come up with but not say anything more than to answer questions. Things like some people prefer other people not to mention what sex they are, they don't think it's important to doing their job whether they're a man or a woman. Yes they're still a boy or a girl underneath, everyone is one or the other. No I don't know which. Your teacher would like to be called Mix Smith. Don't worry if you get muddled, they won't be upset.

If you wanted to ask school how they are explaining to the kids, feel free. Most people aren't as up on this stuff as MN, it won't get you labelled or anything, you won't be the only confused parent.

I'd get your child out of that school immediately op sorry

This

I would talk to the headteacher about it. Honestly though anyone who is teaching very small children should have the bloody common sense to understand that making things about their identity will just confuse kids. They are too young to understand gender woo, you will probably just end up offended so may as well just use the correct sex pronouns. I’m married and use Ms, no need for Mx, it’s just annoying, no-one is that invested in your marital or gender status. I dislike this bollocks because you are disrupting small kids sense of reality, it’s bloody Orwellian.