Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

As far as believing in souls go, then yes. That's exactly how I described myself to a believing friend: a male soul in a female body.

Gendered brains, however... That's a much more complicated matter.

I do believe that brains are somewhat plastic, so can be moulded to a point by external influences. So for example, I believe that socialisation may possibly lead to differences in how male and female brains end up functioning.

I also believe, for having experienced it myself, in the power of hormones, so I believe that brains flooded by male or female hormones may possibly end up functioning differently.

But I also believe that those differences, if they exist, may very well be negligeable.

I have wondered about phantom limbs and how they relate to an internal body map, so I looked into whether people born with missing limbs experience it.

Extremely interesting - the answer seems to be usually not BUT it can be induced eg by looking at images of yourself with the limb added. So I can certainly imagine that trans people with deep seated feelings of "the wrong body" are reacting to a subconscious projection of themself as the other sex rather than an innate miswiring of their body.

I think we (the self aware ego part of us that can observe, conclude and act with agency) underestimate just how good the brain is at fooling itself. We probably have to because if we second guessed our perceptions and memories all the time we'd go mad.

Wow, thanks for those links! Very very interesting studies...

As for revisiting your theory: I think one problem is going to be that not all trans people likely feel the same. I don't identify at all with the way some other trans people describe their experience, and vice versa. But I for one would be fine discussing this with you if you want.

"So I can certainly imagine that trans people with deep seated feelings of "the wrong body" are reacting to a subconscious projection of themself as the other sex rather than an innate miswiring of their body."

Interesting! So if I understand well, my brain would have imagined a version of myself with a male body, and for some reason, swapped it with the actual inner map of my body?

Hmm... That brings up a few questions:

1. What was it that made this male version of me so attractive?

2. How does the swap happen, in terms of brain activity?

3. Why is it so persistent?

Food for thought. Thank you!

I don't want to belabour the point but again your comment
my case is a bit special
would not go down well coming from a trans woman.
Im not trying to pick at you, just trying to understand the differences in attitude. @soupycustard 's points do go a long way in explaining this to me.

"my case is a bit special
would not go down well coming from a trans woman."

Only if she were using it to request a special right to enter women's spaces just for herself, I think. Just saying, "I'm different from most other trans women I've met in this and that ways" would have no reason to be received badly.

Great to hear from you OP.

Over the years I have ventured on here occasionally under different user names to attempt to put the trans man point of view. Always been eaten alive so tread carefully!

My son and I have coexisted very happily for 11 years with him as a trans man and me as staunchly gender critical. He's 23 now and there's absolutely no doubt it's the right thing for him albeit I would have wished him an easier life.

We ventured ventured into support groups early on but it wasn't right for either of us. I was horrified by the parents (I went from clueless to gender critical practically on the spot) and he wasn't interested in being a poster child or a campaigner.

I hope that you and he are able to continue living your lives away from the noise and the judgement.

Apologies for the slight derail - talking about plasticity and how good the brain is at fooling itself - has anyone tried the 'rubber hand illusion'?
A few years ago I used to spend time trying different settings for this, and it is very spooky how quickly your brain incorporates external parts as your own body (even objects which are obvioulsy not!).

@Seethlaw - I've just found this about lateralaty which might apply for you in particular: www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1357650X.2016.1273940

I think the bottom line is OP that you're accepted here specifically because you're a woman and not because of your identity as a trans man. Which is fine and understandable but it's still denying something you feel is your inner and outer being. I just wonder how that feels to you? I know there are no easy answers to all this.

I'm interested in why you validate your internal map of your body more than your actual physique.

Did you ever explore accepting your body in its unaltered form and celebrating and honoring it for what it naturally was, physically?

I want to ask what kind of experiences you had in the support groups, but I understand if you don't feel like talking about it.

Thank you for the well wishes, and good luck and happiness to you and your son :)

Just reading the description of the rubber hand illusion experiment, I know I would fall for it extremely quickly. I need to rely on visual cues to know where my body parts are, so I'd be toast :D

Thanks for the link!

"In contrast to our hypotheses we show a similar experience of ownership for all groups, which may indicate no hemispheric specialization for the illusion. In addition, plasticity of ownership and body ownership are similar for the left hand and right hand in all participants, which suggests similar representations for both hands in the brain. This might be useful to maintain a coherent sense of the body in space."

This seems to indicate that my being left-handed would have no influence on my faulty mental maps, right?

The thing is, being a woman is an essential part of being a trans man. You can't separate the two. I couldn't be a trans man if I weren't a woman. So when I come into a space where the sex of the participants is paramount, such as a GC women's board, it makes total sense to me to be treated on the basis of my sex. My sex is my sex; it doesn't change, and sometimes it's more important than my gender.

This post interests me. It seems that as trans men, you feel you are taken more seriously- as men very often are.

I do wonder whether trans women, used to male privilege, struggle with being treated as women often are - ie lesser, and thus feel that they are being victimised, when actually they are simply being treated like the women they wish they were.

I don't validate anything; I just feel/sense or not. So I can see with my eyes and touch with my hands that my body is female, and I can sense with my sense of proprioception that I'm male. So from there, I have to choose which senses I'm going to favour (maybe that's what you meant by validating?) And I choose the proprioception because that one is constant. I'm not constantly looking at or touching my body, but I am constantly sensing it internally. So if one set of sensations has to align on the other to reduce the feeling of dissonance, I'm going to favour proprioception over seeing and touching.

"Did you ever explore accepting your body in its unaltered form and celebrating and honoring it for what it naturally was, physically?"

I think so? I spent many years superficially convinced I was a woman, and living as such, complete with dating a man, getting married, getting pregnant and giving birth. I don't think I could do much more?

Oooh, good point! It would make sense, really. Either they pass and then they get treated as women, ie. lower on the social hierarchy than what they are used to. Or they don't pass, and then they get treated like men who pretend to be women, which is once again lower on the social hierarchy. Either way, they lose in privilege - and thus feel victimised.

It's not just going to be on this board though is it. As this change to everyone being determined by their biological sex, not their preferred sex it is obviously going to affect much more areas of your life. I imagine being a trans man will get harder for you.

@PhoebesPony as the OP is not in the UK, the recent changes aren't going to affect them as I understand it

If I were in the UK, yes, the recent ruling would make my life is a little bit harder, mostly in that I would have to use the women's loos, and I don't feel comfortable doing that because I'm always worried a woman will think I'm a man at first glance and feel anxious about my presence. Other than that, I don't think it would change much?

In fact, I'd argue it might make some other things easier. For example, the ruling explicitely states that where the presence of a trans man might cause trouble for women, other accomodations should be provided. Would that mean that I could go to a gynae's office and not have to sit in the waiting room with the women and girls, making everyone nervous about what the hell I'm doing here? I'd like that!

Partly, but it is also behaviour based. Anyone who comes on and acts like an arse or makes thoughtless posts is likely to get short shrift. As many of us found out quite quickly. It's practically sacred ritual by now.

Trans men have maternity protections certainty post SC ruling. The Scotgov argued they'd lose that. Thats no small thing!

" ... a male soul in a female body ..."

I wonder if you have any idea(s) about how your soul interacts with your (female), body, if it does?

I know this is an obvious problem for all believers in (non-Aristotelian-type) souls. You seem a thoughtful and well-balanced sort of person, though, and this does seem particularly pressing for those who see their soul as somehow mismatching their body.

Oh, and what makes a soul male or female? (We know what makes a body male or female, but ...)

I do wonder how people who believe in souls deal with such questions. ... Just ignore them? ... Think of them as ill-posed in some sense? ... Answer them somehow? ... Or what?

Thanks.

Yes, exactly

Yes, that's great. I think I was thinking more of a shift in attitudes to trans people, as in being dismissed more easily, becoming more unacceptable in society now the law has been clarified. The rights for women being affirmed by it is obviously a good thing.

I meant more in the way that attitudes towards trans people could change in a much more negative way and in that way make life harder. I'm not saying they will, just thinking out loud