Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

For example there's a thread on here from a parent about a teacher who may be trans and a lot of comments frame it as 'tricking' people into believing they are the opposite sex. Which logically you could say is true. The person would need to come out and state what they are and then see if it's acceptable to parents

So I do think in many areas of life, not necessarily covered by the ruling trans people will find life a lot harder. Some would say that's a good thing, some would say it's not.

That might happen, though I doubt it because discrimination against gender reassignment is illegal, and people wouldn't risk being sued just to express a bit of annoyance.

But honestly, in my experience, the vast majority of people just want to live their lives, and don't care one bit about trans people. They won't suddenly turn into open transphobes for no reason.

Well, 'sex by deception' is a crime in the UK. So there is an element of deception in trying to 'pass' as the opposite sex. Most of the time this doesn't really matter, but in some instances it does.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/prosecutors-publish-updated-deception-sex-guidance

The thing is, you can't have your cake and eat it too. That person called the attention of everyone onto themselves by choosing to be called "Mx". They didn't have to do that, but once they do, it's only logical that people look at them twice and wonder.

Too many trans people want society to shape themselves around them but at the same time they want everyone in society to pretend to ignore them entirely. I'm sorry, but that's neither fair nor possible. Other people are not extras in the movie of our life. They have their own life, and if we ask them to modify some parameter in that life to accommodate us, they have the right to express an opinion or ask questions about it.

Thank you for such a measured and thoughtful post. Your situation has been hijacked by some very aggressive activists that have a campaign rooted in hate, but I have always been aware there are real people caught in the cross hairs, that didn’t carry this view.

I echo others that there is no need to devalue or dilute, or remove anyone’s identity or human rights - and a third way was and is always possible.

I wish you every happiness.

I think the child made comments about the teacher which alerted the parent. It's not actually clear whether the teacher actually is is a trans man or woman. But regardless I don't think the fact they used Mx was wrong, it could mean anything. If the teacher is trans it will probably become apparent, not because they use Mx. I think trans people probably just want to get on with their lives but in this instance if there are enough complaints then they wouldn't be able to.

Or perhaps they intentionally drew attention to themselves so in that case weren't actually 'tricking' people.

I never said it was wrong to use Mx. I only said that the moment you use Mx, you draw attention to yourself - which is what happened.

If they are a trans person who wants to go stealth, then that was an ill-thought move. The first rule of going stealth is, by definition, "Don't draw attention to yourself."

If they are a trans person who did want to draw attention to themselves... Well, they did?

Sorry, but this does not sit right with me

So I can see with my eyes and touch with my hands that my body is female, and I can sense with my sense of proprioception that I'm male. So from there, I have to choose which senses I'm going to favour (maybe that's what you meant by validating?) And I choose the proprioception because that one is constant.

This is exactly how I felt when I was anorexic. In my head, (*) I was fat.

(*) I would not call it proprioception. Same in your case, even if the theory sounds appealing.

I spent many years superficially convinced I was a woman.

But you were, and are, a woman!

"This is exactly how I felt when I was anorexic. In my head, () I was fat."*

I don't know that much about anorexia but now I'm really curious. Do they know how it works? Are there working treatments?

"But you were, and are, a woman!"

I am a woman who feels like she's a man inside. So yes, I am a type of woman, I don't deny that. I just need to present as a man.

Well yes, in order to be open and honest possibly and not 'trick' anyone as it was put. I'm not sure if it's better to go by stealth or just come out with upfront.

The SC judgement in itself won't change anything as it was simply a confirmation of the meaning of the Equality Act. The actions of TRAs over the last 10/15 years however may have made the law trickier to navigate in practice. In the sense that when we all accepted that there are 2 sexes and that females need sex-based rights, there was still the possibility of a sort of 'fudge' where on an individual basis someone genuinely just popping into a cubicle for a quick pee in the 'wrong' toilet didn't seem particularly important. Now it's become important because it's been used and gloated about as an act of abuse. But I think that as this thread has shown, transmen won't be vilified by women, and men won't feel threatened so although of course they could act like idiots and be rude, I can't imagine that many of them would be hugely bothered even if they noticed. I guess what I'm saying is that if the clarity in the law helps control access to spaces by aggressive TRAs, we'll all go back to sort of muddling along together.

"I'm not sure if it's better to go by stealth or just come out with upfront."

That is a debate for the ages, indeed. I've known trans people to be on both sides of it. Or rather, there was an agreement that a mix of both is necessary: you don't need to inform every shop assistant selling you cookies or veggies that you're trans, but you do need to tell every doctor examining you. So the debate is more about who to tell and when. Everyone has their own boundaries.

Once upon a time, before all this happened , back when I assumed transwomen were our allies against patriachal gender constructs, I read an article by a transwomen talking about how the world did or didn't change for him after transitioning.

He said as a "woman" he could mostly still get the respect/attention from men professionally that he had had as a man and he thought it was because he knew how men communicate and women didn't. He said he could see the men were actually communicating the same way with women and men, but the women were missing cues that men were tuned in to. (And I'm sure the other way round also, but he probably missed those).

I'm not saying he was right of course - his colleagues knew him as a man before, and of course he'd never had the lifetime experiences of how men respond to women trying to interact with them in a "man way" - but still it was such a positive, "as a trans woman this is what I learned by transitioning that I want to share with you" perspective instead of today's "as a trans woman I am going to tell you why I know what womanhood is better than you" that it has stayed with me for years. I hope the author maintained that perspective.

Okay, I'll admit, my first reaction was, "I want to know what those secret cues are!!" :D

Makes me want "How to pass and live as the other sex" workshops...

Yes I know what you mean regarding the use of the word “ally”. I chose that word as I have a brain-foggy tired brain (menopause/ chronic health condition) and it seemed easier to type that than describe my 40-year friendships with, and vocal support of, many lesbians and gay men. This is why I mostly lurk instead of contributing as it takes a lot out of my little brain to get involved these days and I do not always manage to express myself clearly enough😊Completely agree re last paragraph.

@Nickers1234 - HRT, my lovely! Bloody marvellous stuff. I no longer want to kill everyone, am not drenched with sweat 8 times a day with hot flushes and my brain fog has mostly cleared.

I'm not up to date with the thread yet, but just wanted to post that this is FASCINATING, because over the years I have suggested this as a sort of "phantom limb" when talking here to trans people - ie I ask if your body feels male, is it like hallucinating body parts or a phantom limb type feeling? And no-one has ever said "yes, sort of" but to me that was a kind of logical suggestion (if it's genuinely nothing like masculinity, perceived strength, etc).

I always wondered if it was a ludicrous suggestion so it's slightly reassuring to see that the possibilities I tried to think of as comparators weren't all ridiculous!

I do wonder if there are not subtypes to Gender Dysphoria, let alone to being trans. Because yeah, I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe their situation in the same way as I do.

Or maybe it's a case of the blind men and the elephant? Maybe we do describe the same thing, but coming at it from different angles?

As usual catching up late on a thread where there are so many interesting points being made. But in response to these points made by OP:

When I close my eyes and keep my hands away from my body and look inside, that's what I "see". Then I open my eyes, and obviously I see that it's different, but the internal map doesn't correct itself, so my brain basically works with a faulty map, trying to adjust to reality all the time.

Not saying it is the same, but for instance many people continue to see themselves as they were when young, and only when looking in a mirror do they realise that they are older. Although that as an experience is probably very easy to explain! But just mean that on one level most of us experience ourselves inside our bodies in a way that does not match with the reality we see and others see.

What was it that made this male version of me so attractive?

That's what made me ask earlier about why male. And in the examples I gave from another thread of women erasing the most female part of themselves so as not be objectified, is this just the other side of the same thing? That in this society, men by and large are more likely to be listened to, and in the street less likely to be thought an easy prey. So is it that the male persona is a refuge from the vulnerable actual female body.

For example, I keep bumping into things because my body parts are not where I think they are. Another example is how as a kid, I loved playing sports, but I was abysmally bad at them. One reason was that I was a leftie being trained as a rightie, but another was that I had no idea where my body parts were unless I could look at them. I couldn't trust that what I was doing was what I meant to do. I would know and see in my head what move I meant to do, but my actual performance of it would be completely erratic.

Please note! I am not a medical practioner. But that could your childhood experience be dyspraxia - which I now see is called Developmental co-ordination disorder (DCD).

Only because I was like that as a child, and was just known as a clumsy child. But years later, when having to have physiotherapy, the person treating me asked if I had ever asked to be diagnosed (one way or the other).

So what is so interesting is that in some instances experiences are common, but we each find different was of dealing with them or learning to live with them. Or threading them into who we are today.

I wonder how much those periods in history when the perfect male body was regarded with respect, whilst women's bodies were seen as those messy, curvy (not always!) things that things happened to like bleed, give birth, and breast feed, are still influential today. Although being the 21st century are now commodified, artificially enhanced, and another competitive pressure.

@Seethlaw I have not read all the comments but just wanted to wish you all the best.

@IwantToRetire "Not saying it is the same, but for instance many people continue to see themselves as they were when young, and only when looking in a mirror do they realise that they are older. Although that as an experience is probably very easy to explain! But just mean that on one level most of us experience ourselves inside our bodies in a way that does not match with the reality we see and others see"

This is so true and a really interesting way of looking at how a trans person may view themselves with respect to their internal vision of themselves.

The OP is from France. No need to be so sarcastic.

Thanks @Seethlaw for taking the time to answer my question about parenthood. I won't claim that it all makes sense to me, but what does come through is that you are at peace with the biological reality of it. I wish you and your family well.