Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

@potpourree

"I sometimes wonder if there is something different going on in some brains"

Ha! That's actually one of my hypotheses! That maybe there's something in the brain of some people that locks on to the body's sex, and that thing goes wrong in some people.

My other big hypothesis is that maybe my mother was convinced I was a boy during her pregnancy (it was before ultrasounds became common), and I imprinted on that. She never told me about her pregnancy, and there's a possibility that she needed me to be a boy, so who knows?

Or maybe some dark Freudian (or whatever) twisting happened because I had no father?

Maybe it's a combination of several factors?

I really don't know :shrug:

You haven't noticed the disconnect? Read OP's posts. Transwomen come on here all abusive, very aggressive and very my-way-or-the-highway. I am surprised you are once again, blaming GCs, when you can't see the difference between the congenial way transmen communicate, vs the aggressive way transwomen do. Transwomen are the problem here, not the GCs. Transwomen come on here throwing their weight around, and literally making demands about what we can discuss in a debate and the terms to be used. They come stomping in here and bullying and aggressively making demands. Transmen don't. Transmen are respectful.

Maybe you could consider the fact that you get the reception you give, hence the disconnect. The very fact that transwomen are so very aggressive, rude and demanding and transmen are not, should give you a wake up call.

The transwomen that have started these threads, have all, sadly, without exception, been aggressive and thrown their weight around. Without exception.

That's not our fault. We are only reacting to their aggression, bullying and abuse. That you blame GCs for transwomen's behaviour is disgusting and so wrong. Naturally if you come on here and are congenial and understanding and sincere and friendly as the OP is, you will get a different reaction than if you are a dismissive, aggressive bully. That's not rocket science. It says a lot about the Male Pattern Behaviour of the transwomen. Maybe you could consider that, and finally realise the point we've been making this whole time, instead of blaming GCs for the behaviour of males.

Just to pick up a point :

"I have only made drastic cosmetic changes to my body in order to support my request that I be socially treated as a man"

Do you think it's fair or right that trans women request to be treated socially as a women also?
I ask because no one picked up on your comment but usually have a lot to say about men requesting to be treated as women socially.
Or is it ok for trans men , i e. socially acceptable but not for trans women?

I get and agree with many things on here and my eyes have been opened to a lot through this thread but a few things don't really sit right still.

I did say I wasn't attempting to speak for OP!

But there have been other threads where women have discussed how things changed for them, partly (not always) because of physical changes to their bodies - combined with how others, particularly men reacted to that.

But it doesn't mean this is the story of every women's girlhood.

(I think the thread was about how many of us when young wanted to be male.)

And I'm truely sorry that as a child your male faminly members abused you.

I just look on the inside and feel male

Have only just registered this.

So wonder where did the idea of what was male and what was female come from, so that you are aware that inside you feel male.

What is "male" to you?

Sorry @PhoebesPony I have just read through the full thread and didn't realise others made the same points to you as I did and I came on later. I didn't mean to make it feel like a pile on to you.

I hope you are both paying attention @ButterflyHatched and @FairAdvocate . Oh and also @Christinapple .

This is how it's done!

No problem @FlakyCritic ! I came on with a few points of view, I hope I wasn't blaming GC women as such, just trying to work out the differences in how trans and trans women are treated. I agree with just about all of everyone's points and have learnt a lot that I genuinely didn't know about! I then went and read the breast feeding thread and was utterly disgusted at the way some men are trying to infiltrate traditional women's spaces that have no relevance to them. I'm just learning and asking questions 👍

1. England is in Europe
2. Many places outside of the UK learn English 🤪

Re my post above it's a bit like us women turning up to a prostrate clinic or something. Absolutely nuts

Thank you @Seethlaw for this thread, it's a breath of fresh air after all the scoldings and Trojan horse threads we've been putting up with. Genuinely interesting questions and answers, from all points of view.
Thank you to @PhoebesPony too for a genuine exchange of views. It helps to clarify thinking when we can take these arguments further without descending into name calling.
I have skin in this game as it were, and have to be careful what I say in real life.
I have real sympathy for trans people who, like the OP, just "know". The reason why some people feel like this isn't clear, but it's increasingly hard to support these people while also trying to protect women's spaces. And it's not their fault or ours. It's the fault of the ridiculous TWAW No Debate movement with its activists shouting down any proper debate or discussion - to the point that this forum was one of the last places left where you could even state biological reality out loud.

"Do you think it's fair or right that trans women request to be treated socially as a women also?"

Of course. But just as I'm aware that there are limits to my request, they too must respect those limits. One of those limits is that our rights or requests cannot trump other people's rights.

@IwantToRetire

"I did say I wasn't attempting to speak for OP!"

Oh no, I didn't take it that way, don't worry :) I was just commenting on your post, not correcting you or anything.

"So wonder where did the idea of what was male and what was female come from, so that you are aware that inside you feel male.
What is "male" to you?"

Honestly, it doesn't go any further than the body for me. My internal map of my body is that of a male body: large shoulders, flat chest, narrow hips, penis and testicles. To be clear: it's not what I want; it's what I feel. When I close my eyes and keep my hands away from my body and look inside, that's what I "see". Then I open my eyes, and obviously I see that it's different, but the internal map doesn't correct itself, so my brain basically works with a faulty map, trying to adjust to reality all the time.

There are no considerations of behaviour or gender stereotypes in this. Those only come later, on a conscious and deliberate level, when I use them to reinforce to others my claim that I'm a man. When I'm alone with myself, there are no considerations of, "I should do this, and I can't do that." I'm just me - a man with a female body and various interests, some stereotypically male, some stereotypically female, and I don't care either way.

But if no one accepted you socially as a man and insisted you are a woman would you be ok with that? Would you still be able to live a happy life if how you see yourself was unacceptable?

If I read this as if it was written by a trans woman (insert appropriate sex etc) then I'm back to my original point about the differences in how trans men and trans women would be spoken to. I don't think it would be accepted in the way you might be.
Don't pile on me lol, I'm working my way through all this!

That's interesting about your internal perception. I'm curious whether you ever looked into possible causes why your inner perception was different from reality? Asking in a genuine spirit of attempting to understand.

How could a woman know what it's like to have a male body, as she's never had one? Anyone can imagine, of course, but you seem to be suggesting something different- more like proprioception.

I understand 'phantom limb', but that's after the loss of something that was there before.

I wonder the same.
As it's been said many many times here - male/female are biological realities.

Also, I wanted to ask @Seethlaw - do you think you are perceived as a man or as a transman?

It sounds to me exactly like the way a lot of trans women see themselves. I'm not sure what to make of it.

You mean, I present as I do, as a man, and nobody accepts my request to treat me as a man? Hmm... Well, my case is a bit special, because in my case, it's not so much the request that matters, as the statement. I feel bad when I don't present myself to others as male; I feel like I'm lying about who I truly am. So as long as I'm allowed to present as male, I don't feel bad. Sure, if nobody played along, I'd likely feel sad, but I wouldn't feel like a fraud, which is what matters most. Unlike some other trans people, I don't need much validation or affirmation of my gender from other people, so it wouldn't be so bad.

Now, if I weren't at all allowed to present like a man... Well, it already happened: for years, I erased my knowledge of my trans identity from my consciousness, and presented as a woman. I wasn't being true to myself, but I felt no guilt, and still don't now, because it wasn't my choice. It was the choice of the people who had power over me. It was them who wanted me to lie, so they got a lie.

I imagine it would be the same in a society were transitioning is not allowed or not recognised: I would present a lie, but I wouldn't feel bad about it, because it wouldn't be my choice. Sure, it would be hard to constantly play pretend, to be an actor playing a role, but I don't think it would be any harder than other hardships I've had to go through.

It's an interesting point PhoebesPony.
To me the different way in which transmen are viewed versus transwomen does have a logic to it.
I'm not going to pick up on Seethlaw's explanations and 'cross-examine' in the way I perhaps would a transwoman because fundamentally, Seethlaw comes across as an open honest thoughtful and reasonable person and will not either impinge on my sex-based rights or, being biologically female, be a risk to me in the way a biological male would.
I think this thread is the perfect example of what posters always say: we are not 'transphobic'. The battles are not about trans per se but about women and our right to take our place in society with the necessary help of sex-based protections.
Seethlaw as a transman and I as a woman can perfectly happily co-exist in this brilliantly diverse soup of humanity we all live in. I can't on the other hand happily co-exist with an intact male who screams 'kill terfs' because he wants to wave his willy round a female changing room.

"I'm curious whether you ever looked into possible causes why your inner perception was different from reality?"

No, but only because I wouldn't know where to start. I'm open to suggestions, though!

"How could a woman know what it's like to have a male body, as she's never had one?"

Note that I don't claim to know how men feel about their body. I'm just describing my own inner sensations.

"Anyone can imagine, of course, but you seem to be suggesting something different- more like proprioception."

Yep, exactly: something akin to proprioception, that's exactly it! And coincidentally or not, I actually have a very bad sense of proprioception. For example, I keep bumping into things because my body parts are not where I think they are. Another example is how as a kid, I loved playing sports, but I was abysmally bad at them. One reason was that I was a leftie being trained as a rightie, but another was that I had no idea where my body parts were unless I could look at them. I couldn't trust that what I was doing was what I meant to do. I would know and see in my head what move I meant to do, but my actual performance of it would be completely erratic.

"I understand 'phantom limb', but that's after the loss of something that was there before."

I'm afraid in my case it's closer to body integrity dysphoria, where people want to remove a working limb or disable in some way an able body, precisely because they have a distorted mental body image.

@Seethlaw thank you for your detailed explanations and openness to discuss the subject.

I'm just me - a man with a female body and various interests, some stereotypically male, some stereotypically female, and I don't care either way.

So do you believe in a gendered soul/brain?

"do you think you are perceived as a man or as a transman?"

Hmm, hard to say.

I used to think that those who know me only saw me as a trans man, but then I sometimes get remarks or questions thrown my way that people would only tell to a biological man, so it seems that some of them do see me as a man?

With strangers, it's even harder to tell. Well, those who call me Ma'am obviously see me as a woman :D Of those who call me Sir, I obviously can't know how many genuinely see me as a man, and how many clock me as a trans man.

I used to have a similar 'proprioception theory' about transexualism, but after years of reading FWR I came to the conclusion that it did not make much sense.
Maybe I should re-visit it?

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10128397/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22364652/