Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

True, but I make it a rule not to judge why someone writes fanfic. It's given for free, so if I don't like it, I can just set it aside and not come back to it.

Also, some people don't necessarily have the means to access therapy, or are not in a place where they can seek it. If writing fanfic can help them in the meantime, that's better than nothing.

The average height of a woman in the UK is 162.4cm/5ft 4.

https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/health-survey-for-england/2021/part-4-trends

@Seethlaw
Thank you very much for your detailed and insightful answer to my question upthread. Your response mirrors my own observations and it's good to see I wasn't 'seeing what I wanted to see'.

Well I apologise for knowing tall people and being quite tall myself! This is silly.

Thank you for that clarification. Your initial statement really jarred with me as well, and I’m glad you are happy to fine tune it.

I kind of hate the whole “allyship” claims and all that stuff. It be all sounds so performative and “Look at me being wonderful.”

As the mother of, and cousin of, and close friend of a number of lesbian, gay and bisexual people - and having known them all my life - I found the whole T bolt-on rather weird and mystifying. Identity and sexuality are not the same AT ALL. I’ve gone to Pride events to support me kid, signed petitions and written to my MPs over Section 28 and equal marriage.

But suddenly signing over women’s spaces to late transitioning transwomen who had all the advantages of male privilege, male entitlement and a male puberty seemed absolutely nothing like those issues abd campaigns.

So many interteresting posts on here, only just catching up since late last night. But would like to quote this from OP

"OP unfortunately if you were a trans woman you would have been torn to shreds on here."
I highly doubt that. To be more precise: I highly doubt that a transwoman would be torn to shreds JUST for being a transwoman. People would be wary, yes, and she would be made highly aware that she is a man in a place mostly populated by women, but I don't see why she would automatically be rejected.
"Every post would state you're a man and refuse to entertain your thoughts on the matter."
Did you see me barging in claiming to be a man? No, I didn't. That's the difference with all the transwomen I've seen coming on here so far: I accept my biological reality. I am a biological woman and I'm not afraid to own it. A transwoman is a biological man and they need to own it as well.
" I wonder if they'd be happy to call you he/him as you probably prefer being a trans man as they certainly wouldn't call a trans woman she/her."
I expect to be called she/her. I accept that on this forum, people call you by your sex, not your gender.
" I find the disconnect between how trans women and trans men are treated quite strange."
I don't. In my experience, transmen are far more likely to be respectful of other people's opinions and of the law, while transwomen are far more likely to be entirely self-centered and demand that other people twist themselves around them, even in their own spaces. That this creates a huge different in how transmen and transwomen are received is only natural.
"You have both wanted to change to the opposite sex"
That is utterly impossible. I'm a biological woman and I'll always be a biological woman. I have only made drastic cosmetic changes to my body in order to support my request that I be socially treated as a man (and because it fits my own apprehension of my body better, but that's entirely personal.)
"No one has really challenged you at all in the way they would a trans woman."
What would they challenge me on?
"But a bit of understanding both ways would be nice."
People here have shown nothing but respect for my feelings of gender dysphoria, so yes it would be nice if in return transwomen showed respect for the fact that they'll never be biological women.
" would be nice if the discussion was a bit more balanced about trans men and trans women. If people are GC then surely they feel the same towards trans men as they do about trans women."
Why would they, when there are at least two massive differences between the two categories? One is a biological fact: transwomen are men demanding access to women's spaces, while transmen present no threat to women. The other is one of attitude: I'm not the only transman around here, and all of us accept to play by the rules of the place (for example: to be sexed, not gendered), while transwomen typically don't.
You're comparing apples to oranges. Just because both are fruits, doesn't mean they are the same. People around here show me respect because I showed them respect first. Let transwomen do the same and they'll see they can be respected too. In fact, I bet a lot of people here would love to hear from a transwoman who would explain her situation in a reasonable manner, and who would show that she understands why so many women are wary of her and don't want transwomen in their spaces.

This is just not only wonderful to read but a clear illustration of why (is it because they are biological male) so many TW dont get respect.

Their need to lecture and demand and to insist that because they want the affirmation of being in women's spaces women must allow them to be in them. Do TW really believe they change sex, or is it that just part of their way to justify saying that women must treat them as though they have. ie reverting to aggression to get their way.

I cant imagine OP and other TM making this demand on men. Or maybe they do?!

Can you imagine how different it would be for all of us if the growth in trans identity, let alone gender reassignment had and was happening in this manner of exchange.

So accusations that FWR is hostile to TW is informed by the relentless attack on women's rights and women's experience of being a member of the female sex class in a world where the male sex class has discriminated against, excluded, been violent towards women all through history.

Whether its nature or nurture this thread just illustrates that men's believe that they are in the right remains whatever identity they adopt.

Just agreeing with this. Best wishes OP.

@IwantToRetire

"I cant imagine OP and other TM making this demand on men. Or maybe they do?!"

I suppose you could argue I do when I use the men's loo? I wouldn't say I demand anything though. And I certainly wouldn't do so with anger or aggression.

I suppose you could argue I do when I use the men's loo?

I wasn't really thinking is a physical way, but the endless online rants, sob stories, that we hear or see from TW.

Many of which may not even be true and are just intended to get sympathy and likes, but accumlate to infer that women are being mean and unreasonable.

But obviously hope that @Seethlaw you have never experienced something frightening or demeaning in a male toilet.

@IwantToRetire

"but the endless online rants, sob stories, that we hear or see from TW."

Oh! No then. I'm quite happy with what I have, and even if I wanted more, that's not how I would go about it. I'm more interested in figuring out where people are coming from, and on finding ways to reach an agreement.

"But obviously hope that you have never experienced something frightening or demeaning in a male toilet."

Nope. In my experience, men don't care as long as you respect the Rules. So I just go in, avoid eye contact, go straight for the cubicles, wash my hands, and get out. Never had any problem so far.

Hi @Seethlaw , thank you for posting here, and sharing your experience. May I ask a question, which of course you don't have to answer as it's a bit off topic? If I understood you correctly, you say you have a son. I'm just curious how parenthood fitted into your journey, and how it fits with the way you see yourself (e.g. if you are the biological mother, how does that fit with identifying as a man).

Although I certainly do not identify as a man, I have, in my life, experienced similar feelings to yourself.....As a 10 year old girl with short hair ( always my natural default when I most want to feel like myself) I was once mistaken for a boy. This was in the 1970s when it was common for girls to have short hair.

But nonetheless, after the initial, transitory feeling of being insulted, I actually found the experience very interesting. It was interesting the way the boys viewed me as a result of them thinking I was male. It was different to how they would have viewed me if they had identified that I was actually a girl....and for those few moments I quite enjoyed the liberation of it. I was afforded more space, and more kudos, somehow. A strong childhood memory

I've always appreciated masculine beauty...and have a very definite male aesthetic that I find attractive. Beautiful Adonis types......youthful and masculine, but also quite gracious and feminised with accessories, and an unselfconscious apprection for looking good, stylish, fit etc. Not beefy, but muscular and masculine...athletic.....very much the Greek archetype.

Anyway, as a young women ( but also still now all of these years later and as a grandmother) I used to look at such young men on the streets and admire them...and my feeling was always that I was doing so as a gay man. My gaze, adoration and 'ownership' of their beauty felt very masculine. That was my feeling. I can understand why men find other men attractive.

Having said that I have also been very much into what I would call my 'goddess' femininity and sexuality. The deep feeling of the power of being female, and the beauty, and the pull, and the power of that. I think we ( women) all have an inner masculine, male self, and men have an inner feminine, female self.

My experience is just one person, but it explains why some women have very little patience for the trans women who are now, apparently, feeling threatened. I've seen what happens when the mask slips.
The men in frocks phrase used to shock me, until I realised that the loudest angriest tra voices were from self id'd men who are not in the least scared or vulnerable.
And some of the angriest, bitterest voices on here will belong to women who have been on the receiving end of their abuse or violence in real life. And I'm pretty sure that men in frocks sums up who they perceived was threatening them. Although tbh sometimes they don't even bother with the frocks.

It's just that it doesn't feel right for me to present as a woman. It's a lie. It's what I am biologically, but not who I am psychologically.

Now, I know this may be impossible to answer. But... a woman "psychologically" - obviously that suggests there is something a woman "is like", psychologically. I spend a fair amount of time getting frustrated by that notion would you say this is, very broadly, referring to "feminine" traits? Or is it something different? And if you had an idea at 6 about what a woman is psychologically, how do you think that got embedded (I mean, given what you've said about the church, I'll take a guess that that might be in there somewhere) and do you think that either has changed, or could have changed, since then?

I'm not trying to catch you out, it's something I'm always interested in (and often even the most articulate people can't say much more than "i just felt it" ) - so perhaps not something I'll ever understand.

I've always kind of assumed it boils down to some interpretation of masculine/feminine but also really want to know if this is wrong.

Oof! That's both an extremely simple and extremely complicated question :D

As far as actions go, it was simple. I was divorced and my son lived with his father (better care for him in his father's country), so it had very little impact on them. My ex-husband already knew about trans people; he accepted it with no problem. Our son is autistic and very easy going. His only concerns were whether my own transition meant that his father and himself would have to transition too. Other than that, he didn't care much. I never asked him to call me anything new because I'm still and always will be his mother.

Psychologically, parenthood has been very complicated from the start, but there's no telling how much my trans identity came into play since it was entirely repressed for so long. There were certainly other huge factors (various types of abuse) impacting my relationship to parenthood. Since my trans identity came back to my awareness, I can't really say it has had much of an influence on my parenting. I don't feel differently towards my son. I don't act differently either. It helps that I was never a feminine mother, and I never felt any need to become a "masculine" parent. I'm just me, and I remained so through my transition.

" if you are the biological mother, how does that fit with identifying as a man)"

I identify as a man, but I have a female body. I claim the former without denying the latter. The way it feels to me is: I was a man who had convinced himself he was a woman, and lived as a woman. I thus experienced unusual things for a man, but I feel I experienced them as a man, if this makes any sense? It's complicated to explain, but it feels simple to me :D

... a woman "psychologically" - obviously that suggests there is something a woman "is like", psychologically.

Obviously not presuming to answer for OP but there have been other threads about this on FWR.

And not saying this is true of everyone but for many the problem was much more the gender stereo types that society tries to force of females from the moment they are born.

And not just those of us who were tom boys in our youth, but the feeling contrained, pushed and pulled into a mould that you just weren't.

And up until puberty, this can just be a bit light hearted, but the crunch is finding that yes indeed your body is female and that because it is female it means changes in your body. And more so than before how men young and old start looking at you, or worst physically imposing on you.

It this point in history it is almost like there are 2 extreme reactions to this. Young women who go down the route of over emphasising their femaleness, breast implants etc., and those who reject it all and some go on to say this is because they are trans. While most of us muddle through.

Just taking the example of female breasts. At least 2 high profile women who are trans and had breast removal surgery, talk about this being their moment of liberation. ie they have amputated the part of their body that men fixate on and force them (us) to be intimidated by the womanliness of our bodies. One then referenced having been molested. The other (and of course in the Guardian) that now she could go bare chested on the beach. Which she could have done without having surgery, by going to those Scandinavian countries where women being barebreasted on a beach.

The opposite of this is of course women, who openly boast about it, who have endless breast enhancement, advertising to men that the breasts they then exhibit aren't real, but realise they can make money by putting them on display.

Had meant to just talk about how gender stereotypes so limit women's prospects, even today - and of course what happens, however much wanted, becoming pregnant, giving birth and then caring for a child.

Just think of the historical stories we learn about of women who disguised themselves as men so as to be able to get an education, a position in society they couldn't if they were known to be women. Even this week there was the story of the woman who pretended to be a teenage boy so as to be accepted into the Magic Circle which didn't allow women.

So not to go on any longer, but all of us who didnt feel we were female growing up, was it our bodies or was the very curtailing impact of gender stereotypes?

(edited for many typos)

Giving birth is exclusively female but I challenge anyone to say it's 'feminine' in the usual sense of the word! If it wasn't for it making a person physically very vulnerable, I'd say busting a human out of you (and the life support system for said human, which you also grew) and enduring enormous pain to do so while swearing like a trooper would be seen as wholly 'masculine' (and heroic) by any visiting alien.

If that is something I inferred, I dont think giving birth is feminine. I talked about it being almost the prime example of being of the female sex.

It’s fascinating to read your experiences and perspective. Another one who wants to say thank you for delurking!!

I agree that your English is brilliant! Which country are you from originally if you’re happy to answer this? You must have been in Canada for many years to have gained such a grasp of written English language, very impressive.

@potpourree

"a woman "psychologically" - obviously that suggests there is something a woman "is like", psychologically"

Not quite. It's purely internal for me. I don't look on the outside and observe, "Oh women are like this, men are like that." I just look on the inside and feel male. It's nothing to do with other people; it's only about me. I understand if it doesn't make a lot of sense, because, well, what does that feeling lean on to decide I'm male? I have no idea. It just does.

"And if you had an idea at 6 about what a woman is psychologically, how do you think that got embedded (I mean, given what you've said about the church, I'll take a guess that that might be in there somewhere)"

The church started a few months later, so no, it wasn't that. How it got embedded... I do have a few ideas, but nothing that can be tested or verified in any way. What's for sure is that I don't remember any external influence during my early years after my birth, nobody who would have done or said anything that would have made me think I'd be better off as a boy. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, of course.

" do you think that either has changed, or could have changed, since then?"

It hasn't changed. When I look at pictures of myself as a kid, I see a little boy. When people mistake me for a woman, I feel like I'm lying to them. It's as strong as ever. And if it could have changed, then I think all the years I spent considering myself a woman and living as a woman to obey my mother and the church would have done the trick. But it never stuck. As soon as the pressure was removed, poof, my "reality" reasserted itself.

"I've always kind of assumed it boils down to some interpretation of masculine/feminine "

Not in my case, as far as I can see. In a way, I wish it were, because then I could just work on that interpretation and try to find a way to incorporate it into a female life.

No, not at all, just something I've thought before!

@IwantToRetire

"the crunch is finding that yes indeed your body is female and that because it is female it means changes in your body."

See, that's weird, because for me, that wasn't a problem at all. My puberty hit very early, but I didn't care.

"And more so than before how men young and old start looking at you, or worst physically imposing on you."

Some men in my family didn't wait until my puberty to start imposing on me, so really, for me, the problem was being a child, not specifically being a girl.

" ie they have amputated the part of their body that men fixate on and force them (us) to be intimidated by the womanliness of our bodies."

Oh. I see. That's so different from my experience! I didn't hate my breasts or anything. I just felt that they didn't belong on me.

"all of us who didnt feel we were female growing up, was it our bodies or was the very curtailing impact of gender stereotypes?"

I don't think it was either for me. I was fine with my body, other than its sex, and I never let gender stereotypes get in my way, even once I psyched myself to believe I was a girl.

I'm from France :) And I spent only ten months in Canada, but after that I read a lot in English, both books and on the internet. And I write too, which forces me to not just passively receive English as I read, but also actively construct sentences that make sense and reflect as much as possible what I want to say.

Your ability to express yourself so thoughtfully in a second language is very impressive. It's been very interesting reading your posts, and you seem content in yourself, which is good to read.

I just look on the inside and feel male. It's nothing to do with other people; it's only about me.

If it's genuinely nothing to do with any character or psychological traits whatsoever then no, I don't understand! It's something you (understandably) assign great meaning to, yet doesn't seem to have much actual communicable meaning

I sometimes wonder if there is something different going on in some brains - you know how some people see sounds as colours, even KNOWING those colours aren't there, and they're not hallucinating, they just 'experience' the colours - I wonder if there's something 'extra' afforded to the notion of physical sex in some people? But that seems a rather far-reaching idea when cultural ideas of masculinity/femininity are so so deeply engrained they must be having an effect somewhere, on some people at least.

Plus, the sound-colour people can absolutely identify what is being 'added' to the sound - which colours go with which sounds. I don't think they would say 'well I associate colours with this music, but I couldn't say which colours they are, they're just 'C major arpeggio' colours'. So my analogy doesn't really work.

Ultimately, as much as I want it to make sense to me, it's none of my business what your 'feeling male' is as long as it makes sense to you. And I'm glad that it does seem to be the answer.

Thank you for enduring my musings!