Trans former judge to take government to ECHR

[CervixSampler]

Trans former judge is taking the government to the European Court of Human Rights over SC ruling

Just needs a piano.

An excellent point

Getting pregnant naturally and having a baby is 100% accurate in determining the sex of both the mother and the father as the definition of sex is not chromosomes but gametes.

It’s not quite so simple though.

Some people don’t produce gametes.
That doesn’t mean they’re neither male nor female.
You need to look at characteristics other than gametes sometimes.

If people don't produce gametes it will most likely be because of a biological process, a medical condition or procedure specific to that person's sex, ie menopause in women. Mumps can (rarely) cause sterility in males because it affects their testicles. Even more rarely mumps can damage fertility in females because it affects ts their ovaries. So even if the mechanism for producing gametes is not working the reason why still underlines the binary nature of sex.

Non functioning gonads doesn’t mean no gonads.

Yes. And It's my understanding that it's about how your body is formed.

Whether it's formed around the production of small or large gametes.

It doesn't mean the gametes work.

I think that's a fairly infallible way of determining sex.

You really would I think, though, that this argument about DSDs would've run its course, given it's about the 99 point wherever number of people who don't have them.

For those who are biological parents it is exactly that simple. No one can be a biological father without being male, and no one can be a biological mother without being female. There can be no doubt as to their sex. I was making no comment on those who are not biological parents.

Also, it’s a system that works across species.

It’s why we can say that a snail is hermaphrodite, a clownfish changes sex, holly bushes are male and female and male seahorses bear young.

When somebody has A DSD we can understand that by identifying which gamete their body is organised around producing, even if no gametes are produced - so XX males are male despite chromosomes and genital ambiguity.

Phenotype is obviously not irrelevant to sex recognition, but you are still saying ‘this phenotype is common in human/seahorse/chicken females. You aren’t describing what female means.

Mostly that’s right (not always, but that’s rare).
Just saying it’s not always as simple as looking at gametes, that’s all.

Okay. I wasn’t sure you were solely referring to those who had children as you said “the definition of sex is not chromosomes but gametes”.
That seemed to be a broader point.

Sigh, the whole thing is such complete bollocks....

The definition of sex IS gametes. If for whatever reason you don’t have any then it is based on the type you would have if you did have them. Sex is not solely a human trait and the definition is consistent across both plants and animals.

Yes, so as I said you sometimes have to look at other characteristics if gametes are not being produced by an individual.
That’s all.

Gratuitously off topic, but Isaac Asimov dreamt up a 3 sex extra terrestrial (technically extra universe 😀) in "The Gods Themselves".

As ye were.

For women having a naturally conceived pregnancy means you are definitely XX. For men - well it's possible for someone with Klinefelter's (XXY) to be fertile so they might be XXY but the overwhelming majority will be XY.
So for any parent who conceived without reproductive assistance their genotype is pretty straightforward.

I've read a lot of his books but never that one. I'll add it to my list of books to read.

People with Kleinfelters are male, so as pp said, there is still no doubt about their sex.

As for genotype of fertile males, XYY (Jacob’s syndrome) is also a possibility. It affects about 1 in 1000 men and fertility is usually normal.

Women with XXX are often fertile too, again there’s an incidence of about 1 in 1000 so these are not extremely rare conditions.

Often people don’t even know they have these extra chromosomes

Have a look at the last post in the BMA Clowning themselves thread as a paediatrician has come on and written about how rare DSDs are and about how they do accurately know a baby’s sex.

But my point is chromosomes are neither here nor there - sex is based on gametes.

Ok. But what does this have to do with the phenotypically completely normal males who want to LARP their fetish in women's single sex spaces?

Absolutely nothing I would think @teawamutu.

But there's a direct link between chromosomes and gametes, the two things don't exist completely independent of each other.

The gamete proves the chromosomes, doesn't it?

Only in humans. In some fish and reptiles sex is determined by the temperature eggs are incubated at.

Genes (not chromosomes) determine sex in humans. But sex is defined by gamete type. Yes for the vast majority of humans females are XX and males are XY but getting caught up with chromosomes you find yourself arguing around Swyers symdrome, or Turners or Klinefelters.

I don’t think we need to worry about fish or reptiles though. It’s what happens in humans that’s relevant here.

There is no ambiguity at all regarding the sex of people with Turners (X, female) or Kleinfelters (XXY, male).

People with Swyers are women even though they’re XY (part of the Y is mutated) so that one is complicated. They don’t produce gametes. Neither do women with Turners and many men with Kleinfelters don’t either.

You can’t just look at gamete production, not at the level of the individual at least.