Trans former judge to take government to ECHR

[CervixSampler]

Trans former judge is taking the government to the European Court of Human Rights over SC ruling

I don't often comment on these points as I don't feel very well informed on this but I have to say this sums it up clearly for me.

They needed the young teenage girls to look credible.

We've said this for some time.

The reality is the trans umbrella includes a range of different groupings with separate distinct characteristics and profiles - but there is actually very little that joins them together apart from force teamed activism.

I don't think so.

If the judge bases the case on being an "anatomical and endocrinological woman" - i.e. argues that the concept of sex is based on objective criteria - that goes against all Stonewall's campaigning for the last 10 years and excludes many (most?) people who identify as trans, particularly those who are younger.

[Also likely to fail because ECtHR has already ruled that Gender Recognition can't be dependent on sterilisation, so not clear how it can be related to hormones and surgery].

I don't think JM et al know what they want to argue.

However, that isn't stopping them from asking for donations.

Anyone else read the title of this thread and think judging transformers could be fun. More than meets the eye!

Yes. I don't think everyone has quite grasped it yet.

It's got nothing to do with the space. And everything to do with the women in the space. Because it is only the women that make it a female space, and therefore provide the validation.

I've pointed out before that if all the women left and went to another space, the focus would be on that space.

Because the space is just four walls and a ceiling, the presence of the women is what is crucial. It is they that are being used. They are the tool, they are the resource. Their presence is vital otherwise it doesn't work.

Which is why transactivists have never wanted a third space. Even now, when they're being offered top tier accommodation, they don't want it. Because it's not about the accommodation, it's not about the service, it's not about peeing, it's about using the women.

It's the women and girls who need to be provided. They are the service.

Have you seen Stonewall's accounts?!

Arguably they'll be insolvent before any case gets to the ECHR. They are in that much trouble. Even with this as their begging bowl (keep in mind they are actually competing with Jolyon and his merry band of friends for funding in this respect) they aren't going to find enough to cover the deficit from the loss of public and corporate funds from private sources.

However it's done it will be reframed as 'a loss of rights' and that makes it politically tricky for Labour.

Ahh but Red, if they can get a massive donation and just claw back their credibility …

Who from?

Individual donations of that size, raise their own questions and concerns about motivations. They are the type of donations that start conspiracy theories.

They weren’t ever ok; women were never asked. Not one woman treats a space with a man in it the same as a single sex space, not even TRAs. Most women would keep their head down, avert eyes and leave as quickly as possible, steering young children discretely out the way. TRA women would fawn in order to try and placate the instinctive threat but kid themselves they were being ‘inclusive’.

Red

my posts are facetious.

I don't know why JM is wasting his time in the UK anyway.

If he really wants the definitive case to prove that the ECHR precludes recognition of biological sex, he only has a few days to find a woman who wants to be the next Pope.

I think it’s money too and mostly has been about this. Who wants to lose their livelihoods? No one really.

I keep thinking there has to be a Pasthisprime joke but MN might be watching 👀

I think the women/girls being in the room is definitely key. I don't believe all tw want us to be unconsenting. Although there will be some who get a little frisson. Unaware, welcoming, whatever, they key is that we are there. They can look at the room with us in and themselves there too. They are one of us. The immersive fiction is much harder to maintain in a room full of other men.

Yes. Although I think some absolutely do like the lack of consent.

There was that article (guardian I think) of a transwoman shopping in a department store, and getting the sales assistant to help him choose all the women's clothes/shoes etc.

And when he went to pay, he said something like he knew the sales assistant was uncomfortable, and he smirked at her because of it.

My point being this was in a national newspaper. The acceptability of a man making a girl uncomfortable was totally normalised.

But I don't think it's always crucial to make the women uncomfortable, it's just crucial to be in there, whether they're uncomfortable or not.

Well aware.

Some things still need saying for third parties though.

Ok. Go for it.

I think the 'tw' who have gone the full-Hayton, had all the surgeries, etc. are less likely to be perving. However, the kids these days have this term 'flexing'. I can imagine them all getting off on seeing a female's discomfort, seeing she can't even voice it and revelling in the power trip. It'd be a rare tw who'd feel ashamed and apologetic.

This is just my opinion though. I'd be delighted to be wrong.

Lack of consent is the whole point for many men. And for others asking for consent requires explicit acknowledgement each time that they are not women, which they refuse to do.

ISTR he was more of a cross dresser type, although it was a while back so he probably identifies as “trans” now.

Exactly and the money is a big part of way this will fail.

Unlike the pro-women cause where there is little money to be made TAs expect cash flow. They will sabotage each other to get it.

GLP will achieve nothing with the cash. Stonewall would fritter it away too but they still have some marginal impact.

Meanwhile on our side wherever we put our money we get massive results. Huge gardens.

In terms of money, many of us women will see a case like Sandie Peggie's and dip into our pockets to crowd fund. The men (both biological and men who define themselves as women) are just not likely to bother. They don't see it as their problem.

Well, I hope so anyway and Stonewall and Co can go bankrupt.

Thanks for all your thoughts - you’ve sparked a few ideas for me

1. On funding, a big part of stonewall’s coffers came in the form of big grants from US AID. Trump has cancelled that and it won’t be back for 4 years or so. The rest of the funding was lots of “small” amounts £3-6k so it all fell under the tighter spending controls for public funds. All organisations, police, councils, NHS etc spending a little added up to millions in public money. But they are leaving/stopping now policy is in place. Someone called Dave did freedom of info searches and theres huge data - airing the financial scandal would turn the final taps off - anyone fancy collating the numbers? Civitas looked at the police forces which collectively spent £1.7m and Scotgive gave Scottish Trans’ parent charity over £7m over a decade. Adding up all the small amounts will be a great thing to do…

2. Just like the words TERF or Bigot silence people by smears, so does the word Terrorism or Terrorist! For me the TRA situation is the same - the death threats, job possess and contracts cancelled. Those activities meet the definition for Terrorism so for me we should call that out for what it is. The extremist factions have to be put into the “Prevent” list - so let’s start lobbying on that. People want to fight for and protect underdogs - but the terrorist not so much.

3. No normal person would turn down a private room in the NHS. So that’s a huge opportunity for gently casting doubt just by posing the question about how thats a strange reaction? And is it try that some trans women are pre-op and in heterosexual marriages? That doesn’t sound right in the women’s ward….? Etc

Re 2. I call it TransTerrorism.

At some point I really do think we will get some transincel terrorism unfortunately.