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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans former judge to take government to ECHR

475 replies

CervixSampler · 29/04/2025 09:58

Trans former judge is taking the government to the European Court of Human Rights over SC ruling

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23
MarieDeGournay · 30/04/2025 11:45

RedToothBrush · 30/04/2025 11:33

At some point I really do think we will get some transincel terrorism unfortunately.

Hasn't it already happened? Weren't the attacks on the Ariana Grande concert and the 'Taylor Swift' themed dance classes examples of targets being chosen because they will mostly be attended by girls and women?
There might have been a veneer of some other ideological motive, but when it comes down to basics, both involved maximising the killing of women and girls.

LonginesPrime · 30/04/2025 11:52

fromorbit · 30/04/2025 02:16

Important Context

McCloud is working with Joylon's Good Law Project to attempt to take the case forward.

The GLP previously raised thirty grand to attempt to get Mcloud and Whittle on to the Supreme Court case. Obviously they had no standing as individuals so they were refused. As in many GLP cases money is raised for challenges which have no chance of even getting to court. However the key point is everyone GETS PAID.

I see a lot of people wondering why this case is even being discussed when it seems very unlikely to go forward as McLoud can't intervene in an existing case and seems to have dubious reasons to attempt anything while residing in Eire. Look at all the publicity the case has ha so far and it becomes clearer. This is about fundraising more than legal sucess.

The key element here is the latest GLP fundraiser started after the Supreme Court Ruling has now reached 262,000. This is why it doesn't matter to Joylon or McCloud whether anything actually happens legally. They get to morally grandstand get everyone talking about them while GETTING PAID.

Remember GLP's track record on the 8 trans cases it has pursued so far is a 0% success rate. It has now started another three crowdfunders for a staggering total of 850,000 fundraised from all 11 in total. With absolutely nothing achieved. Details here:;
https://labourpainsblog.com/2025/04/25/trans-rights-help-us-keep-the-good-law-project-going/

In fact because their cases keep failing they undermine the TA efforts. A classic instance is the pointless case against the NHS over puberty blockers which resulted in Streeting doubling down on the ban and cleared any doubts on their position.

From our perspective where gardening results in a string of legal victories the GLP method seems rather odd. However, the profit and publicity motive is key to the TA cause and that is one of its fatal flaws.

This is a really good point, and it explains the about-turn on suddenly being open for business on trans rights again after having announced that they were shifting their focus to other types of cases and dropping the trans cause altogether.

Obviously the SC ruling meant that the trans money would be flowing at full speed again, so naturally their strategy pivoted from the carefully choreographed shift to other causes to cashing in on whatever’s bringing the most money in. Just like the people who cashed in on public contracts for covid PPE supplies.

KnottyAuty · 30/04/2025 11:53

MarieDeGournay · 30/04/2025 11:45

Hasn't it already happened? Weren't the attacks on the Ariana Grande concert and the 'Taylor Swift' themed dance classes examples of targets being chosen because they will mostly be attended by girls and women?
There might have been a veneer of some other ideological motive, but when it comes down to basics, both involved maximising the killing of women and girls.

The attack on the Taylor Swift class was an isolated autistic boy who had been bullied and isolated. He was stopped from attacking the bullies and found an outlet elsewhere. It’s a depressing story because his autism was never dealt with and his special interest went into a very dark place. I’ve not seen anything to suggest it was an ideology other than a fixation with violence and a misguided revenge. But the news coverage has been very poor.

Ariana Grande at the Manchester Arena was an Islamic extremism issue. The perpetrators used to beat up girls in school who wore short skirts. They’d been in Libya fighting with terrorists before they turned on targets in their “home” country. Some say their father shouldn’t have been given asylum here due to known problems but I don’t know enough about that/never checked the references.

But threat of violence is terrorism. And the TRAs have done plenty of that. So they’ve already committed acts which should put them under investigation…

RedToothBrush · 30/04/2025 11:54

MarieDeGournay · 30/04/2025 11:45

Hasn't it already happened? Weren't the attacks on the Ariana Grande concert and the 'Taylor Swift' themed dance classes examples of targets being chosen because they will mostly be attended by girls and women?
There might have been a veneer of some other ideological motive, but when it comes down to basics, both involved maximising the killing of women and girls.

That was incelism. Not transincelism.

LonginesPrime · 30/04/2025 11:55

RedToothBrush · 30/04/2025 08:39

Have you seen Stonewall's accounts?!

Arguably they'll be insolvent before any case gets to the ECHR. They are in that much trouble. Even with this as their begging bowl (keep in mind they are actually competing with Jolyon and his merry band of friends for funding in this respect) they aren't going to find enough to cover the deficit from the loss of public and corporate funds from private sources.

Realistically, with the number of expensive lawsuits they’ll be facing now, insolvency is likely to be their best option.

lcakethereforeIam · 30/04/2025 11:59

That list of trans-demands was simultaneously ridiculous and threatening, needs to be looked at. Particularly as he claims to be a hacker. I don't think the M&S blackmail has its roots in trancels and I don't believe the outages in Spain/Portugal were necessarily caused by human malfeasance but they will give ideas to those who are inclined and have the skills.

Tbf to the list bod, he's done everything legally through the courts. List notwithstanding, there's no other reason to think that he's going to start acting illegally.

CleaningSilverCandlesticks · 30/04/2025 12:01

It’s a depressing story because his autism was never dealt with

What do you mean his autism was never ‘dealt with’? Autism is not something that can be treated.

Merrymouse · 30/04/2025 12:02

LonginesPrime · 30/04/2025 11:55

Realistically, with the number of expensive lawsuits they’ll be facing now, insolvency is likely to be their best option.

Hang on, let's all take a step back - Stonewall clearly says on their website, just above all the other statutory information

STONEWALL IS PROUD TO PROVIDE INFORMATION, SUPPORT AND GUIDANCE ON LGBTQ+ INCLUSION, WORKING TOWARDS A WORLD WHERE WE'RE ALL FREE TO BE. THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE LEGAL ADVICE, AND IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR LEGAL COUNSEL ON ANY SUBJECT MATTER.

They have a disclaimer! It is in capitals! Don't blame them if you thought they understood the law! 😆

RipleyJones · 30/04/2025 12:03

It’s in capitals! How embarrassing for them. Again.

spannasaurus · 30/04/2025 12:10

I've just had a look at the Stonewall accounts to 31 March 2024. They had a deficit of £788k on their unrestricted funds for the year and their unrestricted reserves carried forward at the year end were £788k. That means that if they have the same deficit for 2025 their unrestricted reserves will be down to zero.

(I've ignored restricted reserves as those reserves can only be spent according to the conditions made by the donor)

KnottyAuty · 30/04/2025 12:18

CleaningSilverCandlesticks · 30/04/2025 12:01

It’s a depressing story because his autism was never dealt with

What do you mean his autism was never ‘dealt with’? Autism is not something that can be treated.

I’ve summarised for brevity as I doubt anyone here wants to get into the weeds about the mess in mental health and SEN provision. Be assured I know too much and that chap’s refugee non-native English speaker parents stood no chance advocating for proper support for him. But for starters his age might have put him in the category of a pre 2013 diagnosis which means he likely had unmedicated comorbid ADHD… And it sounded like he was in a school setting which didnt meet need. We will never know but environmental changes could have made things very different

KnottyAuty · 30/04/2025 12:20

Merrymouse · 30/04/2025 12:02

Hang on, let's all take a step back - Stonewall clearly says on their website, just above all the other statutory information

STONEWALL IS PROUD TO PROVIDE INFORMATION, SUPPORT AND GUIDANCE ON LGBTQ+ INCLUSION, WORKING TOWARDS A WORLD WHERE WE'RE ALL FREE TO BE. THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE LEGAL ADVICE, AND IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR LEGAL COUNSEL ON ANY SUBJECT MATTER.

They have a disclaimer! It is in capitals! Don't blame them if you thought they understood the law! 😆

Well they did know they were taking the piss didn’t they? And anyone running a pyramid scheme would always have a disclaimer like that … organisations competed to please them. To get points and rankings - pathetic! It was a completely different dynamic to a consultant being brought in to give advice

DrudgeJedd · 30/04/2025 12:35

@RedToothBrush
"The fact McCloud has teamed up with Maugham is actually amusing. It really does show him up to be a grifter to anyone paying attention"
Thanks for the new earworm 🎶 Grifters, Grifters🎶

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/DDyybi7t634?feature=shared

SinnerBoy · 30/04/2025 12:44

Helleofabore

Anyone else read the title of this thread and think judging transformers could be fun. More than meets the eye!

(I know the thread's evolved a bit...)

Yes, but first, I thought "Excellent grammar! Trans, former judge..."

Then "Transformer - Knobhead in Disguise."

... Obviously not very well disguised.

Helleofabore · 30/04/2025 12:47

SinnerBoy · 30/04/2025 12:44

Helleofabore

Anyone else read the title of this thread and think judging transformers could be fun. More than meets the eye!

(I know the thread's evolved a bit...)

Yes, but first, I thought "Excellent grammar! Trans, former judge..."

Then "Transformer - Knobhead in Disguise."

... Obviously not very well disguised.

🤣

lcakethereforeIam · 30/04/2025 12:48

Called to the bra.

Another2Cats · 30/04/2025 12:50

Someone pointed out that McCloud was quoted at the time saying something rather different about the SC at the time.

From The Herald (Scottish newspaper) 8 Oct 2024

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24638301.amnesty-joins-landmark-supreme-court-case-definition-woman/

A bid to intervene by the Good Law Project was rejected. The group was representing Victoria McCloud, the UK’s first transgender judge and Prof Stephen Whittle, an academic who has been campaigning for transgender rights since the 1970s.

Ms McCloud said: "The Supreme Court is composed of very able and mature minds, aware of the law and of their duties.

"This case concerns a pure and straightforward matter of statutory reading and I have no doubt that the voices of the various campaign groups permitted to intervene, all but one of which are supportive of the Appellants' desire to create a new court-based definition of sex away from the statutes, will be accorded the weight and respect which they are due."

Amnesty to intervene in Scottish Government court battle over definition of 'woman'

Amnesty International has been given permission to intervene in a landmark Supreme Court case on the legal definition of woman.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24638301.amnesty-joins-landmark-supreme-court-case-definition-woman/

PrettyDamnCosmic · 30/04/2025 12:52

Merrymouse · 30/04/2025 12:02

Hang on, let's all take a step back - Stonewall clearly says on their website, just above all the other statutory information

STONEWALL IS PROUD TO PROVIDE INFORMATION, SUPPORT AND GUIDANCE ON LGBTQ+ INCLUSION, WORKING TOWARDS A WORLD WHERE WE'RE ALL FREE TO BE. THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE LEGAL ADVICE, AND IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR LEGAL COUNSEL ON ANY SUBJECT MATTER.

They have a disclaimer! It is in capitals! Don't blame them if you thought they understood the law! 😆

That disclaimer hasn't always been non their website. It appeared sometime in about
July 2022 as evidenced by the Wayback Machine.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220629224906/www.stonewall.org.uk/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20220629224906/www.stonewall.org.uk/

Take Pride

Stonewall campaigns for the equality of lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans people across Britain.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220629224906/https://www.stonewall.org.uk/

SinnerBoy · 30/04/2025 12:56

Ms McCloud said: "The Supreme Court is composed of very able and mature minds, aware of the law and of their duties.

"This case concerns a pure and straightforward matter of statutory reading and I have no doubt that the voices of the various campaign groups permitted to intervene, all but one of which are supportive of the Appellants' desire to create a new court-based definition of sex away from the statutes, will be accorded the weight and respect which they are due."

Ah, but that's when he thought he was odds on for a win. Now common sense has prevailed, the Supreme Court makes Pol pot loom like Mary Poppins, of course.

I hope that some interviewer quotes those words back to him.

Chersfrozenface · 30/04/2025 13:00

PrettyDamnCosmic · 30/04/2025 12:52

That disclaimer hasn't always been non their website. It appeared sometime in about
July 2022 as evidenced by the Wayback Machine.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220629224906/www.stonewall.org.uk/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20220629224906/www.stonewall.org.uk/

Coincidentally, I'm sure, 2022 was the year of the Alison Bailey employment tribunal, where Stonewall were in full "it weren't me, guv'" mode.

A quote from Stonewall on a BBC story at the time
"Leaders within organisations are responsible for the organisational culture and the behaviour of their employees and workers.

"Stonewall's resources, support and guidance is just one set of inputs they use to help them as they consider how best to meet the needs of their own organisation."

LonginesPrime · 30/04/2025 13:50

Merrymouse · 30/04/2025 12:02

Hang on, let's all take a step back - Stonewall clearly says on their website, just above all the other statutory information

STONEWALL IS PROUD TO PROVIDE INFORMATION, SUPPORT AND GUIDANCE ON LGBTQ+ INCLUSION, WORKING TOWARDS A WORLD WHERE WE'RE ALL FREE TO BE. THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE LEGAL ADVICE, AND IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR LEGAL COUNSEL ON ANY SUBJECT MATTER.

They have a disclaimer! It is in capitals! Don't blame them if you thought they understood the law! 😆

GrinGrinGrin

They might find this is slightly undermined by the scores of law firms across the country whose diversity & inclusion policies they literally reviewed and amended in exchange for a higher Stonewall Workplace Equality Index ranking.

Hopefully most of their workplace and school training slides teaching us all what the law does and doesn’t say have been archived too - you know, just to keep track of all the times they definitely didn’t provide any legal advice and definitely didn’t instruct employers to discriminate against women or people with gender critical beliefs, because obviously that would have breached the EA too, so they definitely didn’t do that.

But good luck to them - I guess they could start a new Stonewall index of organisations who haven’t sued Stonewall and convince all their former clients to clamour to be at the top of that one too.

WeeBisom · 30/04/2025 14:02

Here's why I think McCloud is bringing an action under Article 6 and I why I think it will fail.

If McCloud wanted to bring an action saying his privacy rights were violated by this decision (Article 8) or that it was cruel treatment to trans people (Article 3), McCloud would first need to have had these rights violated by a service provider (or it be likely that this would happen). He would then need to exhaust the remedies in the English courts first before going to Strasbourg - Strasbourg is a court of last resort. At worst, this could end up with a case going to the Supreme Court again which could take years and years. And then there's a massive waiting list to even be heard at Strasbourg (at least 5 years).

By going down the Article 6 route, what McCloud can do is bypass all that and argue that the way the Supreme Court made their decision was so unfair it violated McCloud's right to a fair trial. That is in itself a rights violation that can be heard by Strasbourg.

However, I think the case under Article 6 is likely to fail. I would be very surprised if Strasbourg even grants permission for this claim to be heard (they reject most of the cases they receive).

McCloud says the basis of the Article 6 claim is "that the supreme court refused to hear me, or my evidence, to provide them with information about the impact on those trans people affected by the judgment and failed to give any reasons.”

So, by not allowing McCloud to intervene in the case, and by not giving reasons for not allowing the intervention, the Supreme Court breached McCloud's Article 6 rights to a fair trial.

The problem is, individual people have never, as of right, been granted standing to be able to participate in Supreme Court proceedings if they aren't a party to the proceedings. You can't just participate and intervene in any case you like just because you have strong feelings about it and are liable to be impacted by a decision. The Supreme Court balances this by allowing NGOS and representative groups to participate in proceedings (such as Amnesty International) as they can make submissions on behalf of individuals. And quite frankly, the Supreme Court isn't interested in hearing about the impact of the decision on one person - how on earth could McCloud possibly have given evidence about the impact on trans people in general? All McCloud can do is speak about his own individual experience.

If Strasbourg even hears this case, they will consider that all the parties were properly represented, trans people got their voices represented by the Scottish government and by Amnesty International, and there was no unfairness at all and so no breach of the right to a fair trial. Strasbourg will say that if McCloud doesn't like the decision, then the correct route to challenging that is by political campaigning and by getting the government to change the law.

Datun · 30/04/2025 14:11

DrudgeJedd · 30/04/2025 12:35

@RedToothBrush
"The fact McCloud has teamed up with Maugham is actually amusing. It really does show him up to be a grifter to anyone paying attention"
Thanks for the new earworm 🎶 Grifters, Grifters🎶

You can see Bing Crosby genuinely laughing and losing it in that clip, because Danny Kaye improvised, whacking him harder than he should.

Crosby had recently lost his wife, and Kaye clowned around on set, to make him laugh.

The director liked the genuine camaraderie in that cut so much, he kept it in.

CleaningSilverCandlesticks · 30/04/2025 14:42

WeeBisom · 30/04/2025 14:02

Here's why I think McCloud is bringing an action under Article 6 and I why I think it will fail.

If McCloud wanted to bring an action saying his privacy rights were violated by this decision (Article 8) or that it was cruel treatment to trans people (Article 3), McCloud would first need to have had these rights violated by a service provider (or it be likely that this would happen). He would then need to exhaust the remedies in the English courts first before going to Strasbourg - Strasbourg is a court of last resort. At worst, this could end up with a case going to the Supreme Court again which could take years and years. And then there's a massive waiting list to even be heard at Strasbourg (at least 5 years).

By going down the Article 6 route, what McCloud can do is bypass all that and argue that the way the Supreme Court made their decision was so unfair it violated McCloud's right to a fair trial. That is in itself a rights violation that can be heard by Strasbourg.

However, I think the case under Article 6 is likely to fail. I would be very surprised if Strasbourg even grants permission for this claim to be heard (they reject most of the cases they receive).

McCloud says the basis of the Article 6 claim is "that the supreme court refused to hear me, or my evidence, to provide them with information about the impact on those trans people affected by the judgment and failed to give any reasons.”

So, by not allowing McCloud to intervene in the case, and by not giving reasons for not allowing the intervention, the Supreme Court breached McCloud's Article 6 rights to a fair trial.

The problem is, individual people have never, as of right, been granted standing to be able to participate in Supreme Court proceedings if they aren't a party to the proceedings. You can't just participate and intervene in any case you like just because you have strong feelings about it and are liable to be impacted by a decision. The Supreme Court balances this by allowing NGOS and representative groups to participate in proceedings (such as Amnesty International) as they can make submissions on behalf of individuals. And quite frankly, the Supreme Court isn't interested in hearing about the impact of the decision on one person - how on earth could McCloud possibly have given evidence about the impact on trans people in general? All McCloud can do is speak about his own individual experience.

If Strasbourg even hears this case, they will consider that all the parties were properly represented, trans people got their voices represented by the Scottish government and by Amnesty International, and there was no unfairness at all and so no breach of the right to a fair trial. Strasbourg will say that if McCloud doesn't like the decision, then the correct route to challenging that is by political campaigning and by getting the government to change the law.

You miss out the bit that he doesn’t even live in the correct jurisdiction. He lives in Ireland.

DrudgeJedd · 30/04/2025 15:39

Datun · 30/04/2025 14:11

You can see Bing Crosby genuinely laughing and losing it in that clip, because Danny Kaye improvised, whacking him harder than he should.

Crosby had recently lost his wife, and Kaye clowned around on set, to make him laugh.

The director liked the genuine camaraderie in that cut so much, he kept it in.

Ah I didn't know that about Crosby's wife, I've always loved that film because it reminds me of weekends spent with my grandparents. Way back when female impersonators were funny.