Thank you, you wonderful ladies. I spoke out today for the first time.

[TeaAndCakeMakeThingsBetter]

I’ve been lurking for a very long time, reading, absorbing and appreciating all the discussion on this board. I’ve tentatively raised the issues with some friends, although sadly some are fully captured that TWAW (whilst proclaiming their strong feminism 🙄), but never really had the courage to ‘go public’.

The Supreme Court ruling and the backlash has been going round and round my head all week, and this evening I felt emboldened to comment on the BBC facebook for the first time.There were so many comments on ‘what about the 6 foot beardy transmen’, ‘the poor trans women just want to pee in peace’, why aren’t all loos just unisex etc etc and I had comebacks for them all, largely based on information I’ve learned here. I feel like I’ve actually done something positive today rather than just getting frustrated in my head, so thank you, you wonderful wise women. I’ll continue to lurk and learn, and hopefully will be able to contribute more over time.

👏 👏

I'm not so brave. I just liked a few comments. Would never have done that before though.

Good for you. Biological women want peace and safety too. Trans women can go in the toilet of their sex. Their safety should not compromise our's

Well done! I also stuck my head above the parapet today on my local Facebook group. Surprisingly much support for my stance that males, no matter how they identify, should just do the right thing and stay out of women’s spaces.

I have to admit, I’m a bit scared of any comeback. I’ve locked down my profile so there’s no personal information, and I tried to comment in a questioning kind of way rather than aggressively, but still 😬. I did quite enjoy asking men why they were so against making the men’s loos a supportive and safe place for trans women, and may even have suggested that was transphobic of them, but am slightly worried re backlash.

Good for you. I asked my husband (who doesn't always understand but is supportive of women) if he would now welcome and accept these men who are men but another type of men into the men's toilets now and he screwed his face up and said well I don't want to. I said well the alternative is that they use the womens toilets alongside your mother and young female relatives. He had no answer to that.

I think we just keep using logic and facts.

I reckon one of the biggest problem is that some men themselves are actually ‘transphobic’ and don’t want to accept trans women into their space. So rather than dealing with that, they’ve just shoved the problem over to women and with the bonus of being able to call us transphobic if we object. Loads of comments about ‘but what about a big burly bearded trans man in your loo, how do you feel about that?’ And I just kept saying trans men are entitled to be in women’s loos, and I welcome them there - what are you doing to make trans women feel welcome in the men’s loos? Not many had a comeback to that.

Why didn't he want to?

Well done! I've been similarly louder since the ruling.

They speak from positions of emotion, manipulation and/or ignorance. We have facts and logic. When more people speak out, women win.

Women can never be men. Men can never be women. Everyone knows it, including the diehards. The majority of ordinary people know it, too, and find the whole thing absurd and baffling. Frankly, the best thing to do is to state facts and use satire. The whole thing is laughable!

Had a chat with a new friend today. She's very spiritual and macrobiotic so I'd resolved not to bring anything up just in case, but she tentatively broached the SC verdict and admitted to 'not being sure'.

So I said what I thought. And what do you know, she's actually a terf. Albeit one who still wants to be kind (third spaces).

I think an awful lot of women are. I hope the ruling will help them find their voices.

Well done!

When I read these brave posts about women finding their voices on this I keep thinking about the title of Sarah Polley’s film ‘Women Talking’. There is so much power in women talking, tentatively at first, to each other about this. Keep going, carefully stating your truth whenever you dare. It’s the only way to break the spell.

Once you start you can’t stop. I remember being in the local hairdressers a few years ago and the subject came up. Every woman in there said it was a load of dangerous nonsense and they were sick to death of it. They had different levels of experience of it from a trans child in the family and being shocked at the school and parents enabling what they saw as seriously damaging. One worked as a MH nurse and (without sharing any personal details) said there was a young man who kept changing his name to different women’s names and when the letters and appointments were in the wrong name refused to attend and kept making complaints they were transphobic, when all they were tying to do was keep up and keep him on his treatment plan. They weren’t nasty or spiteful they were just quietly pissed off with the encroachment and being scared to state the obvious due to the threat of being cut off from family or sacked. Keep speaking out there’s a lot of us out there.

He thinks they are strange (his words). He understands men who identify as not men shouldn't be in women's spaces but I think he can't quite accept them as men. He used to think that all TIM were gay men too. Someone up thread said that it's baffling and I think that unless you're emersed in it, read the books etc. then it can be very confusing and strange. I hope this doesn't sound phobic in any way but truthfully I do think it can be quite jarring for some people to see a clearly male person attempting to present as a female. Especially when they're saying I will use womens toilets.

I agree I do think a lot of men are transphobic and don't want to accept these different type of men as men. I think this is very much a male issue and it's for men to sort it out and be welcoming and accepting of their brothers.

Transwomen want to be thought of as women and not doing so is what they'd call transphobic.
So men failing to see transwomen as men is not transphobic.

I was told the ruling specifically mentioned transmen who pass and that they should continue to use the men's.

People of both sexes who pass can use toilets for their assumed sex as no-one will know.

I generally don't use the term transphobic as it makes no sense to me. I don't have a irrational fear of men who identify as not men. I think a lot of men do not see these men as women as they clearly aren't. They can't quite understand why an obviously male person is attempting (and failing) to appear as a woman and expecting to be treated as a woman is society and law. I don't think that's transphobic at all if we are using the term phobic in the correct sense. I think a lot of men think it's strange, bizarre, confusing and probably can't verbalize their thoughts.

Now they may have to start thinking deeper about this as they will have to welcome these men into their spaces.

DH had a go yesterday with his brother. Bit of a total failure as DH is prob more radical than me, but hadn't got come backs to questions that were answered here years ago. He got flumoxxed by 'but have women been attacked by transwomen in the toilets'.

But it was probably the first time his brother had heard that some people don't think TWAW so it was a start. Or that transwomen aren't all sweet people who are tragically born in the wrong body.

Thank you for the perfect illustration of the difference between 'can' and 'may',Fhjiutwafhmbcff! English teachers the world over owe you a debt of gratitude

People of both sexes can do all sorts of things, like speeding or shoplifting.
But there are things they should not do and may not do, like using the wrong toilets. They can, but may not.

Apparently the conversation was kicked off by his brother declaring 'JK Rowling is a clown'.

Eventually the brother agreed the solution was 4 sets of toilets - clearly no insight into that this wouldn't be affirming or arousing

You know, I think that there should be more discussion around how it's okay to find people that present as the opposite sex odd and uncanny and unsettling. That it's not actually transphobic - it's not hate, it's just odd.

From an evolutionary perspective, it doesn't make any sense. It evokes an instinctual reaction, I think, of something not being right. Why would a male mimic a female if not for some evolutionary advantage (say, having access to more females to mate with).

This is just my own musings whilst trying to articulate what I'm thinking, but this push for everyone to be accepting of everything all the time probably goes against a lot of our instincts.

That's a very interesting perspective. Our instincts are being asked to override something that is inbuilt into our consciousness/evolutionary warning signs/survival?

Or we're being told 2 + 2 equal 5 and and not allowed to question it.

May have to re-visit the Gift of Fear for that one.

Yeah, we grew up in an era of being told to accept everything and be kind, but at some point our instincts kick in.

It's still taboo to accept people that want to cut off healthy limbs, but what if that got pushed into being acceptable. All our instincts would be screaming that purposefully destroying a healthy body is WRONG.

We think of ourselves as being enlightened and evolved, but from an evolutionary perspective, we are basically just apes with iPhones.

This is often how I comment publicly. Recently, I commented on a young American man's post, where he stated the UK was executing transpeople. I simply put the dates when we last executed a male and a female. I then suggested perhaps if his sources still believed we were executing people in the UK and they were wrong about that, what else might they not have good up-to-date information on and left it at that. Pebble creating ripples in a pond.

Transwomen want to be thought of as women and not doing so is what they'd call transphobic.
So men failing to see transwomen as men is not transphobic.

The first is not transphobic, it is just women asserting their boundaries.
The second IS transphobic - the men are fearful and/or hateful of men who like to present as women. Failing to acknowledge them as men is transphobic.

it's okay to find people that present as the opposite sex odd and uncanny and unsettling. That it's not actually transphobic - it's not hate, it's just odd.

Sorry, that is not acceptable. Apologies for using race as an analogy yet again, but it is what comes to mind.
If you are used to living in a community where the vast majority of people are white, you may find being around black people a little odd and unsettling at first - that is racism, even if you don't mean to be unkind or prejudiced.

Finding trans people odd and unsettling is transphobia.

(Doesn't mean transwomen should be in female spaces though, obvs)