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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 07:10

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 06:11

I wonder if unpicking it is helpful.

The UK has provisions that mean that organisations and people can legitimately discriminate against a group of people based on a protected characteristic needing to be protected. ie Sex discrimination is separated into legitimate vs illegitimate discrimination.
Through the falsehood that somehow a male person with a belief that they are female, extreme activists sought to by pass the legitimate discrimination clauses that allowed female people to have single sex provisions (ie. spaces, opportunities including sport).

Remember, being a 'female person' when you are a male person is only a belief, sincerely held or not.

Illegitimate discrimination is still protected against in the EA as was mentioned in the judgement. This means that a transgender person should not be prevented from employment, housing, etc because they are transgender. The activist groups over reached and told organisations and individuals that this also included not being able to have single sex provisions if someone had or planned to get a legal certificate that was a legal fiction about their sex.

Some people think any discrimination is bad. But it is the very basis of safeguarding principles that are used to protect people in the UK. It can be argued that it is, in fact, discriminatory that one group of male people get special treatment in getting access to female sex based provisions. This is where it needs to be recognised that there has been additional privileges created for this group.

For instance, the human right for accessing a safe toilet should be based on 'what society views as reasonable'. Society understands that absolutely no spaces are 100% safe.

This is another fallacious argument that we see. The tactic goes 'because you cannot be 100% safe if this law is enacted, why bother? Bad people will still do bad things.' It is just bonkers when you start to unpick that, and again, what law is ever expected to deliver 100% safety. But still we see it rolled out.

So, the human right is that everyone should have access to a safe toilet.

And society has to balance out how to do this. They can only get the safety up to a reasonable level. This might shock some people. But it is considered acceptable risk that people of the same sex as the sex that the space is for use that space.

No male person has a human right to expect privacy and dignity from other male people in a single sex space for instance. The category that is considered for those human rights decisions, is that they are male.

This is based on male strength and power, unique male needs, and male patterns of criminality.
Conversely, it is considered reasonable effort to put female people in with other female people. We shouldn't expect privacy from other female people in those spaces and there is considered acceptable risk that an average female person will be able to defend themselves from and / or run away from other female people.

When people start to claim that it is a human rights issue, they don't seem to understand the basis of the human rights they are claiming. And they are attempting to leverage a sub group of male people into the female sex based category.

Remember, those male people are only female based on their 'belief' which they believe is how a female person feels. Evidence shows that hormones and surgery do not change male patterns of criminality. A male person who has lost their penis due to disease or injury is just as male as one who has opted to have their penis removed due to their belief.

It seems to be all based on this misinformation that somehow this group should be given additional privileges above everyone else because of their belief? And what other belief in UK society gets this special treatment.

The example of a racially categorised film showing is not really working. Because it is a group restricted to them based on the characteristic and it is an event not a facility. If trans people want their own events, this should be protected for them to have. Just like people of a religious faith should have their own events and even buildings. But they are not a special privilege in the same way.

For instance, a group of male people have not only access to their single sex spaces, which we know other male people with transgender identities use without issues, but they get additional privileges if they have access to female single sex spaces and also they can use mixed sex 'gender neutral' spaces as well.

Another is why should any group of male prisoners have access to the female prison estate? No other vulnerable male prisoners get that privilege. They are housed in the vulnerable male section at a male prison. Accessing the female prison should be seen as a privilege. The human right is for safety and the provision of vulnerable male wings should fulfill that.

No other group of male prisoners are treated as if they are not the sex they are. And these male people are not female. It is only their belief that they are. No other group gets this special treatment where they are treated as something that they materially not. Only this one.

And why should any male person be given a role that should be for female people to progress female people (ie a woman's officer in the university's student union) when that male person has no fucking idea what it actually means to be a female person at that university. Just labelling themselves as a female student is not actually being a female student. But that student officer has been given a privilege in addition to others because they should not be in the category at all.

This is what I mean by additional privileges. And I understand that options can be given and if it is open to all and not dismissing the needs of others, should be. However, when I unpick all this, I have to ask what are those privileges based on exactly?

A belief about one’s self that doesn’t reflect material reality.

Sorry brainworm. I went into a whole lot of detail so that I could explain my thinking but it wasn’t that I didn’t think you knew this already.

BettyFilous · 26/04/2025 07:13

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/04/2025 02:07

I don’t think they should be getting private rooms - there are likely to be people who need them more. I don’t see why they shouldn’t either have trans bays or use the spaces for their sex.

The reader response with the most upvotes under the Times’ article about this was from a furious hospital consultant in infectious diseases. He was adamant allocation of private rooms must be on clinical need. He used the example of having to put an infectious patient with active TB on a ward because the private room was occupied with a trans person with less clinical need.

Many people have commented on MN about family members needing a private room for end of life care. I’ve been there. I can’t imagine how distressing it would have been without the privacy of a side room.

ETA I should have read on. @GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder made the same points about clinical need two posts later.

EasternStandard · 26/04/2025 07:14

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 01:47

I'm in the same situation. I couldn't even pass as male if I tried. It is incredibly unsafe for me to use male facilities, not to mention a direct breach of my right to privacy under the GRA. The incomplete interim guidance appears to be stating that I can't use male facilities anyway due to the discomfort it'll cause men to have an obvious woman in there with them.

I transitioned as a child, assimilated and built a life; a career. Everything I've ever known - the entire last 25 years of my adult life - all undone.

I've lived alongside you. Laughed, loved and cried alongside you. Shared moments of elation and despair. What the fuck else can I do? It's who I am - who I have always been.

It's all gone now. Written out of existence and consigned to legal limbo.

I'm not a criminal. I'm not going to break the law. That's not who I am. I don't see how I can even exist in public or my own workplace now, however, under practical circumstances.

To all those celebrating: Well done. Your hate won in the end.

The law hasn’t changed. The Supreme Court doesn’t ‘hate’ it interprets the law.

You've been sold a lie for some time by various organisations and they were wrong.

Now the SC has ruled the outcome women have single sex spaces re established.

frenchnoodle · 26/04/2025 07:16

"Because I can't get what I want I can't live in public"

🤷

Blame the organisations that have lied to you about the law.

Lovelyview · 26/04/2025 07:19

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 02:58

Why are toilets segregated if it's apparently so safe for women to use male toilets?

As you can see on Mumsnet threads, some women are perfectly fine using shared toilets. However, they cannot consent for those who do not want to share their toilets with people of the opposite sex. Men are entitled to their own single sex spaces too though.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 07:22

Stepfordian · 26/04/2025 06:55

You made a choice, now you have to live with the consequences.

There seems to be a complete lack of understanding about the needs of female people and just how female people think here.

I think if you are someone who may have based your entire life thinking that you know how female people think, because you observe the stereotypes and apply them to yourself, that you will act in ways that you see as ‘female’ but are actually misogynistic. I remember a poster once who told us they modelled feminine kindness and grace. But their answers were always very much from a male perspective.

Just like those male people who think posting images of JK Rowling over time instead of themselves is so clever when it really just highlights the misogyny behind their thinking.

ApocalipstickNow · 26/04/2025 07:25

KilkennyCats · 25/04/2025 23:34

That poster is shameful.

BUT if you tweak it to state “they are using the facilities they are legally entitled to” it’s ideal for putting up in the men’s.

TheMarbleRun · 26/04/2025 07:28

I would speak with my HR and ask advice, they should help you to figure out a practical solution. Where I work, I can envisage a couple of alternatives that might be viable until a more permanent solution is found (i.e. some separated, unisex, self-contained toilets).

Maaate · 26/04/2025 07:41

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 01:47

I'm in the same situation. I couldn't even pass as male if I tried. It is incredibly unsafe for me to use male facilities, not to mention a direct breach of my right to privacy under the GRA. The incomplete interim guidance appears to be stating that I can't use male facilities anyway due to the discomfort it'll cause men to have an obvious woman in there with them.

I transitioned as a child, assimilated and built a life; a career. Everything I've ever known - the entire last 25 years of my adult life - all undone.

I've lived alongside you. Laughed, loved and cried alongside you. Shared moments of elation and despair. What the fuck else can I do? It's who I am - who I have always been.

It's all gone now. Written out of existence and consigned to legal limbo.

I'm not a criminal. I'm not going to break the law. That's not who I am. I don't see how I can even exist in public or my own workplace now, however, under practical circumstances.

To all those celebrating: Well done. Your hate won in the end.

The people you should be angry with are the aggressive TRAs, fetishists and misogynists who shat all over women and the transexual males who had managed to exist alongside each other without too much issue for decades

But, quite frankly you were perfectly happy to cheer them on and put the metaphorical boot in too so I have zero sympathy now it's all blown up in your face.

Cope and seeth as the TRA bullies liked to say.

WandaSiri · 26/04/2025 07:51

lavenderlabrys · 26/04/2025 02:38

I'm pleased the interim guidance has been released so quickly- it's important for everyone to know what we're working with. I have to admit, though, that while I'm really happy with 90% of it (the necessity of single sex toilets, hospitals, prison wards, refuges, accommodation, etc), I'm disappointed about the rules for associations. I absolutely agree that, as women, we deserve the right to have single-sex associations! At the same time, I'm going to be mourning the losses of spaces for women and trans women which I've enjoyed over the years. It looks like the new guidance means such events will either have to ban trans women from attending or open the spaces to everyone, which could be a real loss for some of our communities. I really hoped that such spaces would still be an option, for those who want to run them and those of us who would want to attend.

Remember that if fewer than 25 people are members of your association, you can do what you like. How many MCWs are there likely to be on, say, a university campus who are also friends of yours or share a particular interest with you, or are just your kind of person? I think in practice, it's probably going to be OK.

ETA:
Can I just ask (genuinely) what appeals to you about being in a group with women and MCW? For example, I like dance classes with gay men because they're men minus the sexual interest and friendliness is without ulterior motive. That's the sort of thing I am asking about.

BezMills · 26/04/2025 07:58

The spaces, while technically now mixed sex, will in practice be self selecting. Like how likely is it that queerphobic dudebro is going to turn up, really?

EasternStandard · 26/04/2025 08:04

Maaate · 26/04/2025 07:41

The people you should be angry with are the aggressive TRAs, fetishists and misogynists who shat all over women and the transexual males who had managed to exist alongside each other without too much issue for decades

But, quite frankly you were perfectly happy to cheer them on and put the metaphorical boot in too so I have zero sympathy now it's all blown up in your face.

Cope and seeth as the TRA bullies liked to say.

I agree the male posters who could not listen to women have brought this on themselves.

napody · 26/04/2025 08:05

LonginesPrime · 25/04/2025 22:56

The guidance is clear for the people who (attempt to) organise LGB groups as they have been trying to explain this section of the EA to everyone else for years!

The reason you can’t create a group for women and transwomen but exclude everyone else is because women and transwomen don’t share a protected characteristic- they fall under different ones.

Yes it's like the AND/OR in logic.
You can have a group for women who are also (AND) same sex attracted.
You can't have one for women OR transwomen (as nobody will be both)

Igneococcus · 26/04/2025 08:07

Even the Radio 3 news bulletin is talking about the guidance. Are the bulletins the same for all channels?

Conxis · 26/04/2025 08:11

CervixSampler · 26/04/2025 00:09

Dd goes to a mixed school with mixed sex toilets. It’s one big room from a door frame (no door) in the corridor. Girls on one side and boys on the other with some unisex toilets available, communal handwashing in the middle. How is that going to work now?

The school will now have to repurpose these facilities so they are single sex.

So the entire room of toilets will need to be the girls toilets. And then another entire room of toilets will be for boys (but it will probably be on a different floor or a different building)

NebulousCatWhistler · 26/04/2025 08:17

That really got me about Sussex Rape Survivors. Who'd have thought back in the 1980s that there's be resources for even one group to deal with (mostly male) sexual violence, never mind three? Sussex had a women's group, a men's group and an LGBT group. Wasn't that provision for everyone?

But then Sussex insisted that a transwoman could go to the women's group with all those traumatised women. And the traumatised women must welcome this male person and emotionally expose themselves. The legal case is pending..

Sussex Rape Survivors had everything... and they blew it.

MalagaNights · 26/04/2025 08:28

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 01:47

I'm in the same situation. I couldn't even pass as male if I tried. It is incredibly unsafe for me to use male facilities, not to mention a direct breach of my right to privacy under the GRA. The incomplete interim guidance appears to be stating that I can't use male facilities anyway due to the discomfort it'll cause men to have an obvious woman in there with them.

I transitioned as a child, assimilated and built a life; a career. Everything I've ever known - the entire last 25 years of my adult life - all undone.

I've lived alongside you. Laughed, loved and cried alongside you. Shared moments of elation and despair. What the fuck else can I do? It's who I am - who I have always been.

It's all gone now. Written out of existence and consigned to legal limbo.

I'm not a criminal. I'm not going to break the law. That's not who I am. I don't see how I can even exist in public or my own workplace now, however, under practical circumstances.

To all those celebrating: Well done. Your hate won in the end.

There are going to be many children sold the lie they could change sex and the world would play along.

Realising this was a lie is going to be very painful and there are going to be angry people who now have to contend with reality.

Don't be angry with women though we were honest all along. Be angry with the people who lie to children.

SameyMcNameChange · 26/04/2025 08:29

With the bi/lesbian groups discussion, my reading is this.

The Equality Act has 3 sexual orientation characteristics (section 12)

Same sex
Opposite sex
Both sex

I think the relevant provision as to what you can and can’t do is section 19, indirect discrimination, which says you can’t treat people with these characteristic differently unless it is a proportionate means of obtaining a legitimate aim.

If it is a proportionate means of obtaining a legitimate aim, then you could discriminate.

So, if you wanted a lesbian only group (not bi) you restrict it to women who are same sex orientated and exclude opposite sex and both sex attracted women.

If you wanted a as female lesbian and bi group, you reacteict it to female, and exclude only those who are opposite sex attracted.

If you wanted a a lesbian and gay group, not bi or straight, you don’t restrict by sex, but you exclude opposite sex and both sex attracted people.

So I think all the all situations people have raised in relation to that are fine.

It does give an issue if you want to restrict by the actual sex people are attracted to, without restricting by sex of membership (ie lesbians and transwomen who are attracted to women).

Firstly it would need to be a proportionate means of obtaining a legitimate aim.

Then you would need to exclude all men apart from men with a protected characteristic of gender identity, and all women who are opposite sex attracted. I can’t actually think of a reason to do this (I think the Supreme Court might have mentioned this?) But perhaps people could try?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 26/04/2025 08:30

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 02:58

Why are toilets segregated if it's apparently so safe for women to use male toilets?

It's not safe for women to use men's toilets.

It's probably safe for you to use them.

If you believe it isn't, you need to campaign for alternative provision.

SameyMcNameChange · 26/04/2025 08:37

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 01:47

I'm in the same situation. I couldn't even pass as male if I tried. It is incredibly unsafe for me to use male facilities, not to mention a direct breach of my right to privacy under the GRA. The incomplete interim guidance appears to be stating that I can't use male facilities anyway due to the discomfort it'll cause men to have an obvious woman in there with them.

I transitioned as a child, assimilated and built a life; a career. Everything I've ever known - the entire last 25 years of my adult life - all undone.

I've lived alongside you. Laughed, loved and cried alongside you. Shared moments of elation and despair. What the fuck else can I do? It's who I am - who I have always been.

It's all gone now. Written out of existence and consigned to legal limbo.

I'm not a criminal. I'm not going to break the law. That's not who I am. I don't see how I can even exist in public or my own workplace now, however, under practical circumstances.

To all those celebrating: Well done. Your hate won in the end.

I am really sorry you were experimented on so young. I had no idea that children had been given puberty blockers 25 years ago. In the UK under 16s have been given them only since 2010:
https://www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers/

I am devastated to think that these children, who were given experimental drugs with no idea how that would affect their adult lives, must feel so betrayed.

Tavistock’s Experimentation with Puberty Blockers: Scrutinizing the Evidence - Transgender Trend

The Tavistock puberty blockers experiment began in 2010. Over 1,000 adolescents have now been treated. Where is the evidence blockers are safe & effective?

https://www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers/

frenchnoodle · 26/04/2025 08:37

Now coming on to a site of mostly women and airing all the anger and directing it at us is fine of course, it proves who is actually oppressed.

But really it should be directed at suing Mermaids, Stonewall, Genspect and the other organisations that have lied repeatedly to you, not the people who have been honest.

SameyMcNameChange · 26/04/2025 08:39

Is the BBC reporting on this? It isn’t prominent on the app.

MalagaNights · 26/04/2025 08:41

I don't understand why I'm supposed to care where people who identify as trans who may have opted for extreme body modification go to the toilet.

I really don't. And I wish women being interviewed on this point would stop pretending it's our problem to now solve.

A small subset of people now have a potential problem they could either, easily solve but don't want to, or took active steps to create the problem they now have.

They need to consider what might be a reasonable solution for them which is legal and acceptable to the wider population *eg is this a priority for public funds? and then campaign for it themselves.

Meanwhile I care about 997 issues more than I care about this so don't see why I'm being expected to come up with solutions to a problem I don't have & don't really care about much.

TheOtherRaven · 26/04/2025 08:44

I am not sure why a male person who has argued here for months if not longer that women's needs and feelings and difficulties with men in their spaces should be ignored, were trivial, were silly, were hateful, that the needs of that male person should always come first and women who were harmed or excluded were worthwhile collateral damage to this....?

Should feel that women should now extend the sympathy and enablement that person declined to show women, or why women should care about this person's access when that person had no care or support for theirs? Or why that person should be surprised that the law found it necessary to strongly gate keep single sex spaces in a way that could not be wangled with and permit male people to dominate and control female spaces for their own purposes.

I hope third spaces are set up soon, I wish you luck in campaigning for this, and that you are able to then to be comfortable with those additional spaces. I will certainly not say the truly heartless and cruel things to you that were so very often said to women who said they could not use what they perceived as mixed sex spaces. In that, women are treating you far better than you ever treated them.

Igneococcus · 26/04/2025 08:45

SameyMcNameChange · 26/04/2025 08:39

Is the BBC reporting on this? It isn’t prominent on the app.

Here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyw9qjeq8po

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