Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
BoreOfWhabylon · 26/04/2025 03:08

I think @PoisedRubyLion is getting an unnecessarily hard time here. This, I think would apply to her friend:

In workplaces and services that are open to the public:

  • trans women (biological men) should not be permitted to use the women’s facilities and trans men (biological women) should not be permitted to use the men’s facilities, as this will mean that they are no longer single-sex facilities and must be open to all users of the opposite sex
  • in some circumstances the law also allows trans women (biological men) not to be permitted to use the men’s facilities, and trans men (biological woman) not to be permitted to use the women’s facilities
  • however where facilities are available to both men and women, trans people should not be put in a position where there are no facilities for them to use
  • where possible, mixed-sex toilet, washing or changing facilities in addition to sufficient single-sex facilities should be provided
IwantToRetire · 26/04/2025 03:08

Yes, this was a key point that the Supreme Court case turned upon.

Sorry what was?

I thought the definition of an association was about not having a formal legal structure but was limited to a relatively small number, like a Men's Shed.

So as not a legal entity arent covered by equality law.

And is does that mean that if the organising of a large women's event is done by "an association" that is small in size that makes it okay to be women only because that is the intent of the small unregistered association..

eg the Bristol Students Union that had to recognise the rights of feminist students to associate was based on them being an associaiont.

NotBadConsidering · 26/04/2025 03:15

I transitioned as a child, assimilated and built a life; a career. Everything I've ever known - the entire last 25 years of my adult life - all undone.

It’s not our fault, nor the Supreme Court’s fault, that your life has been like a house of cards on a bed of sand.

Brainworm · 26/04/2025 03:20

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 25/04/2025 22:52

Substitute "transwomen" for any other subsection of men who are protected under a different protected characteristic and it's clear that this isn't logical.

For example, a group for (any) women + retired men (PC of age), or (any) women + catholic men (PC of religion/belief), or (any) women + Asian men (PC of race).

But you can have a group for retired women (age and sex) or retired people (age), or catholic women (sex and religion/belief) or catholics (religion/belief) etc etc.

This is a helpful way to highlight the unique conflict that occurs between the protected characteristics of sex and gender reassignment (GR). A defining feature of having the GR characteristic involves the desire to be included in the wrong sex characteristic group. The SC ruling, and this interim guidance, clarifies that the law precludes this from happening.

I do think that accommodations should be made for trans people beyond that of expecting them to use provision organised by sex. I don’t think this approach affords them dignity or respect. I am delighted that the solution via making women’s provision mixed sex has been taken off the table, and I don’t know what solutions will work best.

I think it will take time for these changes to bed in. Overtime, the noise will die down because ‘Jo public’ will tire of the ‘stories’ and the mainstream media will move on and the SM algorithms will change. Hopefully, this will lead to those supporting the genuinely vulnerable engage with service providers to find the ‘next best alternative’.

I think a cohort of activist will steadfastly campaign to change the law. I don’t think any of the main parties will want to do this, there isn’t public support for removing sex as a protected characteristic. I expect they will try and bring legal challenges to force change this way. Again, I don’t fancy their chances.

I really hope that the individuals and groups that are genuinely want to advocate for those with the protected characteristics of GR (rather than punish women) start engaging with employers and service providers to find solutions that afford dignity and privacy. None of them will be welcome right now, as the solution that included affirmation of identity, has been taken off the table.

IwantToRetire · 26/04/2025 03:25

To answer my own question:

In equality law, an "association" is defined as a group of 25 or more members with rules governing membership. Groups with fewer than 25 members, while still potentially a club or society, are not considered associations under this legal definition

and

Clubs which have no formal rules governing membership or whose membership is less than 25 are not associations in equality law.

For example:
A book-reading club run by a group of friends.
A walking club which anyone who finds out about it can belong to.
A choir which is open to anyone who works at a particular place but where no approval is required to join.

This sort of informal ‘club’ is not covered by equality law at all.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/what-equality-law-means-for-your-association-club-or-society.docx

Sorry if this is a bit of a derail, but as an issue has come up on a number of threads. eg the one where a group of friends were being told by a TW they should be allowed to join in.

BoreOfWhabylon · 26/04/2025 03:26

Hear hear @Brainworm

GarlicSmile · 26/04/2025 03:28

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 21:58

That's what I'm getting at.

According to the interim guidance, you can't.

But on a strict interpretation of the interim guidance, you also can't have an LGB association because the B is listed a separate sexual orientation in the legislation, with the L and the G grouped together.

To have LGB associations you would technically need to permit associations to restrict their membership to "members of group A or members of group B", which is unproblematic when A is LG and B is, well, B, but more controversial when A is women and B is trans women.

I don't think that's right about the LGB because the shared characteristic is same-sex attraction.

Pretty sure have others have said this, I'm still catching up.

IwantToRetire · 26/04/2025 03:35

I do think that accommodations should be made for trans people beyond that of expecting them to use provision organised by sex.

But in fact in the vast majority of cases "trans people" were never coverd by the EA as the protected characteristic is "gender reassignment". ^^

Most instances of conflict were caused by those who self identify.

And despite the impression given by ERCC, most women service providers were aware the single sex provision was biological sex based and even the (now defunct) GRC didn't give men the right to be part of a women's sex based service.

Nearly all of the hostility, and public ranting is by those who just self identify.

^^ NB 8,464 GRCs in total have been issued in the UK up to March of last year.

And I doubt they are the ones running round with placards talking about lynching and burning. They are just the standard misogynists trying to conceal their actual identities with some sort of rainbow uniform.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 03:59

Brainworm · 26/04/2025 03:20

This is a helpful way to highlight the unique conflict that occurs between the protected characteristics of sex and gender reassignment (GR). A defining feature of having the GR characteristic involves the desire to be included in the wrong sex characteristic group. The SC ruling, and this interim guidance, clarifies that the law precludes this from happening.

I do think that accommodations should be made for trans people beyond that of expecting them to use provision organised by sex. I don’t think this approach affords them dignity or respect. I am delighted that the solution via making women’s provision mixed sex has been taken off the table, and I don’t know what solutions will work best.

I think it will take time for these changes to bed in. Overtime, the noise will die down because ‘Jo public’ will tire of the ‘stories’ and the mainstream media will move on and the SM algorithms will change. Hopefully, this will lead to those supporting the genuinely vulnerable engage with service providers to find the ‘next best alternative’.

I think a cohort of activist will steadfastly campaign to change the law. I don’t think any of the main parties will want to do this, there isn’t public support for removing sex as a protected characteristic. I expect they will try and bring legal challenges to force change this way. Again, I don’t fancy their chances.

I really hope that the individuals and groups that are genuinely want to advocate for those with the protected characteristics of GR (rather than punish women) start engaging with employers and service providers to find solutions that afford dignity and privacy. None of them will be welcome right now, as the solution that included affirmation of identity, has been taken off the table.

I think it will force organisers to really think about their membership.

I don’t necessarily agree that any female only group should include a special sub section of male people based on gender identity. Because how does that benefit the female people in the group?

It highlights that male people come in all shapes and sizes and personalities and deciding that those who declare that they are women are more female than other male people who might have all the same criteria except the identity. So, why are male people with transgender identities to be included in any female group when those comparable other male people are excluded?

Brainworm · 26/04/2025 04:11

@HelleofaboreI’m struggling to connect your post with what I posted.

I don’t think that there are subsets of sex categories that include, or should include, people of the opposite sex. It wasn’t my intention to communicate this.

A feature of the GR characteristic is the desire to be included as a subset. I welcome the SC ruling and interim guidance for making it clear that this isn’t permissible in the case of provision designated as single sex.

I think that issues relating to dignity and respect can arise (from the GR side) in relation to including people with the characteristic of GR in single sex provision. I have no idea what the solution is. Those with the characteristic need to work with providers on this

Brainworm · 26/04/2025 04:16

I struggle to make sense of posts that seem invested in ensuring people with trans identities use provision in line with their natal sex. I can completely understand objecting to any males using female only provision and once this is determined, why do people feel strongly about what the alternatives are?

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 04:20

Brainworm · 26/04/2025 04:11

@HelleofaboreI’m struggling to connect your post with what I posted.

I don’t think that there are subsets of sex categories that include, or should include, people of the opposite sex. It wasn’t my intention to communicate this.

A feature of the GR characteristic is the desire to be included as a subset. I welcome the SC ruling and interim guidance for making it clear that this isn’t permissible in the case of provision designated as single sex.

I think that issues relating to dignity and respect can arise (from the GR side) in relation to including people with the characteristic of GR in single sex provision. I have no idea what the solution is. Those with the characteristic need to work with providers on this

Ok Brain. It could have been my faulty interpretation of your post.

But I guess I question this point. And I understand that it is not your point.

I think that issues relating to dignity and respect can arise (from the GR side) in relation to including people with the characteristic of GR in single sex provision.

Because I am now at this point trying to work out when this point would even be applicable. Is that what you are thinking too?

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 04:27

I think I was struck by “I really hope that the individuals and groups that are genuinely want to advocate for those with the protected characteristics of GR” as a statement and started thinking about how this could be accommodated in areas outside of single sex facilities. Such as interest groups etc.

I was merely thinking out loud.

Brainworm · 26/04/2025 04:31

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 04:20

Ok Brain. It could have been my faulty interpretation of your post.

But I guess I question this point. And I understand that it is not your point.

I think that issues relating to dignity and respect can arise (from the GR side) in relation to including people with the characteristic of GR in single sex provision.

Because I am now at this point trying to work out when this point would even be applicable. Is that what you are thinking too?

I think the protected characteristic of GR can correlate with a strong aversion to using single sex provision that aligns with natal sex (linked to dignity and respect). I think that it is appropriate to try and find solutions that afford dignity and respect……but inclusion in single sex provision that doesn’t match natal sex isn’t an option.

GreenUp · 26/04/2025 04:37

I don't quite understand how the guidance works in relation to associations.

Let's say you are one of those "be kind" lesbians like Kate Osborne MP who wants to associate with transbians, how could you set up the lesbian + transbian association?

I've seen TRAs say the guidance says it would be unlawful. But is it more that you would have to set it up as a mixed sex, heterosexual association? But then you couldn't exclude heterosexual men who don't have a gender identity.

PS. I understand some of you will ridicule the idea but there are self-identified lesbians like Kate Osborne who want to hang out with transbians. I think we need to consider all the loopholes to be able to effectively debate with TRAs.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 04:42

Brainworm · 26/04/2025 04:31

I think the protected characteristic of GR can correlate with a strong aversion to using single sex provision that aligns with natal sex (linked to dignity and respect). I think that it is appropriate to try and find solutions that afford dignity and respect……but inclusion in single sex provision that doesn’t match natal sex isn’t an option.

Looking at it again from facilities provision aspect, I wonder though when you, general you, start to view this as a philosophical belief, what other group gets special treatment for their aversion to using sex based provisions?

Looking at this from an anti-discrimination point of view, I genuinely cannot see how workable privacy and dignity is around the characteristic of gender identity. Because when I look at it, it always comes out as this group getting additional privileges on top of their rights.

And in saying that, yes third spaces should be considered if it is viable for the organisation or group to do. Because it is an additional space open to everyone and is not limited in usage. Although, it has other issues often discussed which is why it is good as an alternative. As an additional space it is not benefitting a particular characteristic, if you see what I mean.

GarlicSmile · 26/04/2025 04:45

@GreenUp, all they have to do is set up their meeting! They wouldn't be able to say it's lesbians only, is all. They could even call it a Transbians Night 😁

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 04:48

GreenUp · 26/04/2025 04:37

I don't quite understand how the guidance works in relation to associations.

Let's say you are one of those "be kind" lesbians like Kate Osborne MP who wants to associate with transbians, how could you set up the lesbian + transbian association?

I've seen TRAs say the guidance says it would be unlawful. But is it more that you would have to set it up as a mixed sex, heterosexual association? But then you couldn't exclude heterosexual men who don't have a gender identity.

PS. I understand some of you will ridicule the idea but there are self-identified lesbians like Kate Osborne who want to hang out with transbians. I think we need to consider all the loopholes to be able to effectively debate with TRAs.

I think this is more what I was thinking.

How is it of real benefit to female people in the group mentioned by GreenUp to include some male people knowing that they are just like all other male people. It really does become an ideological based argument not one of reality.

The boundaries of the categorisation, I mean. Those are actually unmanageable for excluding any other male who wants to join. It is discriminatory.

Brainworm · 26/04/2025 05:10

ahhhh, I’ve finally caught on to your points!

I am conceptualising GR as a protected characteristic, rather than a conceptual belief. I think that the basis upon which characteristics were included in the EA as in need of protection linked to the impact the characteristic has on daily life, experiences and opportunities. I think the GR characteristic was included with gender non conformity and gender dysphoria in mind.

I’m mulling over your point about additional privileges rather than rights. I have been thinking about the right for dignity and respect. I feel my dignity and respect is compromised by allowing males in female changing rooms etc. Becsuse of this, it isn’t difficult for me to image a male with a trans identity (and the PC of GR) having the same feelings in relation to changing in a male changing room. This is why I don’t conceptualise alternatives as an additional privilege.

I can’t think of another PC whereby single sex provision compromises their dignity and respect. I can think of other controversial provision that has been viewed as a privilege that exceeds rights. A recent one is ‘black only’ performances of films/plays.

Annoyedone · 26/04/2025 05:37

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 02:58

Why are toilets segregated if it's apparently so safe for women to use male toilets?

Because not all women want to or do use mens loos. Maybe the ones that do are trans allies proving mens are perfectly safe for TW. Which is nice of them don’t you think? Some of us don’t. But at least the ones that do prove it’s perfectly safe for a TW to use male facilities. It’s one more way women are being kind

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 06:11

Brainworm · 26/04/2025 05:10

ahhhh, I’ve finally caught on to your points!

I am conceptualising GR as a protected characteristic, rather than a conceptual belief. I think that the basis upon which characteristics were included in the EA as in need of protection linked to the impact the characteristic has on daily life, experiences and opportunities. I think the GR characteristic was included with gender non conformity and gender dysphoria in mind.

I’m mulling over your point about additional privileges rather than rights. I have been thinking about the right for dignity and respect. I feel my dignity and respect is compromised by allowing males in female changing rooms etc. Becsuse of this, it isn’t difficult for me to image a male with a trans identity (and the PC of GR) having the same feelings in relation to changing in a male changing room. This is why I don’t conceptualise alternatives as an additional privilege.

I can’t think of another PC whereby single sex provision compromises their dignity and respect. I can think of other controversial provision that has been viewed as a privilege that exceeds rights. A recent one is ‘black only’ performances of films/plays.

I wonder if unpicking it is helpful.

The UK has provisions that mean that organisations and people can legitimately discriminate against a group of people based on a protected characteristic needing to be protected. ie Sex discrimination is separated into legitimate vs illegitimate discrimination.
Through the falsehood that somehow a male person with a belief that they are female, extreme activists sought to by pass the legitimate discrimination clauses that allowed female people to have single sex provisions (ie. spaces, opportunities including sport).

Remember, being a 'female person' when you are a male person is only a belief, sincerely held or not.

Illegitimate discrimination is still protected against in the EA as was mentioned in the judgement. This means that a transgender person should not be prevented from employment, housing, etc because they are transgender. The activist groups over reached and told organisations and individuals that this also included not being able to have single sex provisions if someone had or planned to get a legal certificate that was a legal fiction about their sex.

Some people think any discrimination is bad. But it is the very basis of safeguarding principles that are used to protect people in the UK. It can be argued that it is, in fact, discriminatory that one group of male people get special treatment in getting access to female sex based provisions. This is where it needs to be recognised that there has been additional privileges created for this group.

For instance, the human right for accessing a safe toilet should be based on 'what society views as reasonable'. Society understands that absolutely no spaces are 100% safe.

This is another fallacious argument that we see. The tactic goes 'because you cannot be 100% safe if this law is enacted, why bother? Bad people will still do bad things.' It is just bonkers when you start to unpick that, and again, what law is ever expected to deliver 100% safety. But still we see it rolled out.

So, the human right is that everyone should have access to a safe toilet.

And society has to balance out how to do this. They can only get the safety up to a reasonable level. This might shock some people. But it is considered acceptable risk that people of the same sex as the sex that the space is for use that space.

No male person has a human right to expect privacy and dignity from other male people in a single sex space for instance. The category that is considered for those human rights decisions, is that they are male.

This is based on male strength and power, unique male needs, and male patterns of criminality.
Conversely, it is considered reasonable effort to put female people in with other female people. We shouldn't expect privacy from other female people in those spaces and there is considered acceptable risk that an average female person will be able to defend themselves from and / or run away from other female people.

When people start to claim that it is a human rights issue, they don't seem to understand the basis of the human rights they are claiming. And they are attempting to leverage a sub group of male people into the female sex based category.

Remember, those male people are only female based on their 'belief' which they believe is how a female person feels. Evidence shows that hormones and surgery do not change male patterns of criminality. A male person who has lost their penis due to disease or injury is just as male as one who has opted to have their penis removed due to their belief.

It seems to be all based on this misinformation that somehow this group should be given additional privileges above everyone else because of their belief? And what other belief in UK society gets this special treatment.

The example of a racially categorised film showing is not really working. Because it is a group restricted to them based on the characteristic and it is an event not a facility. If trans people want their own events, this should be protected for them to have. Just like people of a religious faith should have their own events and even buildings. But they are not a special privilege in the same way.

For instance, a group of male people have not only access to their single sex spaces, which we know other male people with transgender identities use without issues, but they get additional privileges if they have access to female single sex spaces and also they can use mixed sex 'gender neutral' spaces as well.

Another is why should any group of male prisoners have access to the female prison estate? No other vulnerable male prisoners get that privilege. They are housed in the vulnerable male section at a male prison. Accessing the female prison should be seen as a privilege. The human right is for safety and the provision of vulnerable male wings should fulfill that.

No other group of male prisoners are treated as if they are not the sex they are. And these male people are not female. It is only their belief that they are. No other group gets this special treatment where they are treated as something that they materially not. Only this one.

And why should any male person be given a role that should be for female people to progress female people (ie a woman's officer in the university's student union) when that male person has no fucking idea what it actually means to be a female person at that university. Just labelling themselves as a female student is not actually being a female student. But that student officer has been given a privilege in addition to others because they should not be in the category at all.

This is what I mean by additional privileges. And I understand that options can be given and if it is open to all and not dismissing the needs of others, should be. However, when I unpick all this, I have to ask what are those privileges based on exactly?

A belief about one’s self that doesn’t reflect material reality.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 06:33

Talking about passing , I have seen on twitter recently a male person who posts images of JK Rowling as some kind of gotcha. Yet when you look at their feed, they think they pass, I am sure they have been told by well meaning people that they pass. But them posting the JKR gotcha, means people look at their images and they don’t pass in those images. There are several who do this. I noticed this one , Verity I think their first name is, over Christmas declaring they pass and used the same set of pics. They are doing it again. The only reason I noticed them was because they tried this trick. They obviously think it is clever.

I am sure people tell male people they care about that they pass. I am sure that the people telling them that ignore the inherent misogyny that goes with making out that being a woman means meeting a particular beauty standard. Yet male people on social media such as willoughby and others do this over and over again. It surely could be considered transphobic too because it positions those who don’t meet the standard as not being transgender.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 06:35

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 01:47

I'm in the same situation. I couldn't even pass as male if I tried. It is incredibly unsafe for me to use male facilities, not to mention a direct breach of my right to privacy under the GRA. The incomplete interim guidance appears to be stating that I can't use male facilities anyway due to the discomfort it'll cause men to have an obvious woman in there with them.

I transitioned as a child, assimilated and built a life; a career. Everything I've ever known - the entire last 25 years of my adult life - all undone.

I've lived alongside you. Laughed, loved and cried alongside you. Shared moments of elation and despair. What the fuck else can I do? It's who I am - who I have always been.

It's all gone now. Written out of existence and consigned to legal limbo.

I'm not a criminal. I'm not going to break the law. That's not who I am. I don't see how I can even exist in public or my own workplace now, however, under practical circumstances.

To all those celebrating: Well done. Your hate won in the end.

I've lived alongside you. Laughed, loved and cried alongside you. Shared moments of elation and despair. What the fuck else can I do? It's who I am - who I have always been.

This is emotional hyperbole and it is meant to evoke sympathy. But the material reality is abiding, despite your belief that you are somehow female in any way when you are not. The safeguarding protocols are based on sex for a reason. And no male person should be excluded from that categorisation needed for safeguarding.

Emotions are not considered in safeguarding for a reason.

Just like a person’s own inability to read the reaction of others is not a strong reason to ignore safeguarding. Like the male person in the interview over last weekend declaring that not one female person even looks concerned by their presence. The lack of awareness that female people will of course hide their reactions in those situations is stark.

It's all gone now. Written out of existence and consigned to legal limbo.

It was a legal fiction that some people felt was a good idea. Yet never once consulted the very people who male inclusion impacted. Female people.

It should never have been allowed. And if society cannot rectify its legal errors, because it makes some people unhappy who benefitted from the erroneously applied law, that is undemocratic.

Which is why these appeals to emotion are coming thick and fast across the internet.

Stepfordian · 26/04/2025 06:55

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 01:47

I'm in the same situation. I couldn't even pass as male if I tried. It is incredibly unsafe for me to use male facilities, not to mention a direct breach of my right to privacy under the GRA. The incomplete interim guidance appears to be stating that I can't use male facilities anyway due to the discomfort it'll cause men to have an obvious woman in there with them.

I transitioned as a child, assimilated and built a life; a career. Everything I've ever known - the entire last 25 years of my adult life - all undone.

I've lived alongside you. Laughed, loved and cried alongside you. Shared moments of elation and despair. What the fuck else can I do? It's who I am - who I have always been.

It's all gone now. Written out of existence and consigned to legal limbo.

I'm not a criminal. I'm not going to break the law. That's not who I am. I don't see how I can even exist in public or my own workplace now, however, under practical circumstances.

To all those celebrating: Well done. Your hate won in the end.

You made a choice, now you have to live with the consequences.

Stepfordian · 26/04/2025 07:08

GreenUp · 26/04/2025 04:37

I don't quite understand how the guidance works in relation to associations.

Let's say you are one of those "be kind" lesbians like Kate Osborne MP who wants to associate with transbians, how could you set up the lesbian + transbian association?

I've seen TRAs say the guidance says it would be unlawful. But is it more that you would have to set it up as a mixed sex, heterosexual association? But then you couldn't exclude heterosexual men who don't have a gender identity.

PS. I understand some of you will ridicule the idea but there are self-identified lesbians like Kate Osborne who want to hang out with transbians. I think we need to consider all the loopholes to be able to effectively debate with TRAs.

You can set it up but you can’t exclude straight men or women, however in practice how many straight men or women would actually turn up?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.