Womans Hour Wed 23rd April.

[impossibletoday]

Apparently the women from FWS will be on.....

https://x.com/millihill/status/1914732862894694516?t=dVRYwM118BO_24mO21-05g&s=19

It's just the flat, studiously neutral tone of the interviewer that struck me. I'm sure she was under instruction though.

This is one thing that has always hugely bothered me about the debate. Transwomen say they feel threatened in men’s toilets. As a biological woman, I have no trouble understanding that, and think provision should be made for them (separate from that for biological women). But when biological women say that they feel threatened by having transwomen in women’s toilets, there is no empathy, instead the response is usually along the lines of ‘bigot!’, ‘TERF!’, ‘bitch!’

Why does the pro-trans lobby think the fears and trauma of transwomen are real, but that biological women are just using fear/trauma as an excuse? Women are as deserving of any other group to have their fears taken seriously, and bullying them for expressing perfectly valid concerns is reprehensible. The mere fact that the response to their anxiety is to shout them down/threaten them only exemplifies why biological women need protection.

I suspect part of the lack of empathy stems from the fact that those who have grown up male don’t have the ingrained awareness and anxiety that many women do of their vulnerability around male-bodied people. And I fear that a lot of the young women who seem to support the cause have been fortunate enough never to have been in a position of feeling absolutely helpless at the hands of a violent man.

Society absolutely should be working to make provisions for transwomen. But it shouldn’t be at the expense of biological women.

i'm intrigued. Why do the obvious questions go to "but how does this affect men?"

I mean - the biggest question the ruling (IMO) throws up for trans identified people is the one about how transmen could be prevented from using men's and women's toilets. Why are the TRAs not pushing for answers on that?

No, it is all about how the trans identified men will suffer so much now women won't be forced to have them in spaces where they want privacy from men.

She didn't even say thank you to Susan Smith at the end of it!

I just listened via the Sex Matters link.

It would have been pleasing to have had - and what you would think something called Woman's Hour might be onside for - a more celebratory approach.

But not doing that meant this can't be so easily dismissed. It was like a long-form piece. Some of Susan Smith's answers sounded as though they might have been cut together (don't know enough about radio) but she was never interrupted or cut short and she wasn't actually disagreed with. And my goodness, she was good. All the points out there and then some, with details and clarity (though I do wish she had pointed out that the SG was paying out unlimited taxpayers' money to fight this).

Another woman completely underestimated and ignored circa 2018, and then, boom.

@nauticant & @BoreOfWhabylon

Thanks both, often to listen now.

Beautifully put Datun

Just listening to the R5 Live segment now. Oh Marilyn. He really does answer his own questions though. 'Why can't women's safe spaces work both ways, safe for them and for us?' and then ...'People talk about us like we're all a risk, we're all rapists' ... Marilyn, we cannot tell just by looking, mate.

I have no idea how Marilyn presents, he may well be post-operative (I have less of an issue with that, but obviously he's still male and I know plenty of women WOULD have an issue with that). If I were giving him the benefit of the doubt, I'd say he's genuinely confused about why these Mean Girlz just won't let him in, as he feels he's not personally a risk to them? And that is obviously the crux of his problem. He didn't grow up as a girl and a woman, and nonwithstanding the vulnerability he may feel as a trans-id male, he just can't understand what it feels like to be cornered by a man you don't know, somewhere you can't get out of. He hasn't experienced assault as a woman at the hands of a man.

Men, ALL men, just need to pull their socks up and organise for men. Get those third spaces going. Build more loos (don't just steal OUR toilet space!). Work on acceptance campaigns among men, tell THEM to be kind to men who don't present traditionally. Most women are really tolerant of people who present untraditionally or in surprising ways - but it's not our job to make trans-identified men in our spaces feel comfy there. Men can do this heavy lifting, for a change.

This.

I keep hearing people wailing that oh no, men might feel unsafe and uncomfortable having to use other toilets and spaces!

And thinking - you've been expecting women to embrace feeling uncomfortable, unsafe and being excluded all this time without giving a damn!

The sexism is just off the scale.

'Marilyn' is starting from a position of authority in telling women what they may feel, when they are safe and what he will permit them, with no acknowledgement that him walking into a women's space makes it instantly less safe for many women.

He's using however unconsciously his male privilege and belief in greater entitlement and power, and expecting that women should defer to him. Which is why he's so cross that this will no longer be happening.

I am constantly baffled by the plaintive cries of "but how will you check" followed by "will you do genital inspections" (you'd be so lucky, it's as if they WANT someone to rummage around in their pants)

whereas the reality is that most of the time there is absolutely NO DOUBT at all of which space they should use

Thanks for mentioning this. Just listening now. My word. These MPs are squirming, but at least they're there and stuttering through a statement of their views.

Over 5000 people, mostly women, donated to the crowdfunder - it's there in black and white so the 'bankrolled by JK' just doesn't stack up. It's erasing the contributions of women AGAIN.

Trans activism was however bankrolled by public money via the literal Scottish Government.

How will we tell? Women, against all odds don't want to tell - we just want men to do something they're asked. God forbid though!

Emma Barnett was not bad, iirc. She did a few strong interviews around trans identifying males in women's sport.

Anita Rani fawning all over Paris Lees, then going on Twitter to berate her critics as meanies (in total breach of her impartiality obligations as part of the BBC current affairs team - my complaint was ignored) was my cue to switch off for good.

Wherever Jenni Murray is today, I hope she feels vindicated and rightly angry for everything the BBC put her through after her years of service. WH never was damaged forever when she left in the way that she did.

They cite Pink New as their source for FWS being anti trans 🤣

Did anyone listen to Nicky Campbell today? Some pretty outrageous comments from a 'woman' called Marilyn. And a Labour MP (can't remember his name) being very hostile about Rosie Duffield

I'm willing to bet money that WH will "balance things out" with a parade of stunning and beautiful trans identifying males as guests, to talk about their latest projects (usually some sexually outrageous, semi auto-biographical novel that would never have got near a publisher if it were anyone else), their beauty regimes and why they are just so, so beautiful, stunning, mesmerising and more woman than any woman could ever possibly be, and their sadness at all the meanies out there who are waiting around every corner to do them harm, especially those old boomer ladies in their lethal wheelchairs brandishing their sharp, poison laced stickers.

I thought anyone can edit Wikipedia. But I have just gone in and removed those words only to have them revert back. Oh well, got better things to do than fix Wikipedia (like I could anyway, it's well past rescuing).

Yes, I was struck by the way it was only about how this ruling would affect 'transwomen', when it affects all trans people, because the definition of women as biologically female people affects transmen as well.

Why didn't the presenter ask how this ruling might upset transmen because they would have to accept that they are still women?

All the presenter could think of was to ask about how this might make some men a bit sad. No sympathy for any female people, even those who identify as trans.

I've just listened to WH. I thought it was a good interview, because Clare did not interrupt her, played devil's advocate and then gave her the space to put a very clear argument across.

I believe it was pre recorded which might account for the difference in "tone" and sign off.

All the presenter could think of was to ask about how this might make some men a bit sad.

And was told firmly that it was up to men to sort out their issues, as gay men had had to do. (If I heard correctly.)

I find ‘men who identify as women’ will suffice.

Agree. Just listened to it. Claire listened to all the answers and it was a let women speak

I thought there was too much about what will the poor transwomen do. I haven't much sympathy for men who have stolen the rights of women, myself.