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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Podcasts covering the SC judgment

137 replies

peakedtraybake · 18/04/2025 14:01

Could we have a thread of interesting podcasts?

Subpar from the FT. Starts with a close but no cigar summary from Robert Shrimsley, who mentions concerns about single sex spaces, but quickly moves on to trans rights being rolled back, and ultimately concludes that concern about trans rights issues is an import from the US. No evidence of understanding of women's concerns about males in our spaces nor of the silencing of women over this issue.

www.ft.com/political-fix

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loveyouradvice · 18/04/2025 14:09

I was impressed by the two Matts ... slightly rambley towards the end, but the most balanced conversation I've heard from two blokes about this issue, and a good overview of how we got here and what it now means (and a nice shoutout for Julie Bindel!!)....

And shocked by how biased and inconsequential Newsagents was...

ForAzureSeal · 18/04/2025 14:09

Newsagents tried to do it. Emily Maitlis was attempting to provide the nuanced view, John Sopel feeling a bit uncomfortable and then - of course - Lewis Goodall got all on his Millennial high horse about the "frothing" media (in a very frothing manner) and entirely missed the point of the judgement. I was begging for Emily to come back in to pull him up but she didn't. Disappointing.

peakedtraybake · 18/04/2025 14:16

Looking forward to hearing Double Jeopardy on this some time soon - three actual KCs covering it, as they are interviewing Karon Monaghan KC.

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FlowchartRequired · 18/04/2025 14:42

This was linked to on a different thread and Sir Trevor Phillips was very clear.

The Daily T Podcast. From the video descripion: "Plus, they speak to Sir Trevor Phillips, former chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, who helped draft the Equality Act. He calls on the NHS to “stop whining about how difficult it is” and get on with correctly interpreting the law."
Sausagenbacon · 18/04/2025 15:25

I love the FT but it's an utterly lost cause on this.
Waiting for The Rest is Politics.

Datun · 18/04/2025 15:50

FlowchartRequired · 18/04/2025 14:42

This was linked to on a different thread and Sir Trevor Phillips was very clear.

The Daily T Podcast. From the video descripion: "Plus, they speak to Sir Trevor Phillips, former chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, who helped draft the Equality Act. He calls on the NHS to “stop whining about how difficult it is” and get on with correctly interpreting the law."

That was very interesting. Albeit not quite passionate enough for me from Trevor Phillips.

There still seems to be the idea, on the one hand that transactivists are a very small minority, totally eclipsed by actual trans people, and on the other hand, bafflement about how it could've got so far and permeated every aspect of society.

Because over the last few days, all I've seen is transactivists. Where are the actual trans people who disagree with everything they say?

But other than that, a very interesting chat.

It's a lesson in what grown-ups sound like (I don't think I'm never going be as grown-up as him though).

Mollyollydolly · 18/04/2025 15:55

Another vote for The Two Matts. I thought it was pretty bloody brilliant, love Matthew Ancona. He's defended so many feminists over the years. And the Telegraph ones were very good. There's also a Spiked podcast with Helen Joyce on YouTube.

PencilsInSpace · 18/04/2025 15:59

FlowchartRequired · 18/04/2025 14:42

This was linked to on a different thread and Sir Trevor Phillips was very clear.

The Daily T Podcast. From the video descripion: "Plus, they speak to Sir Trevor Phillips, former chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, who helped draft the Equality Act. He calls on the NHS to “stop whining about how difficult it is” and get on with correctly interpreting the law."

This is just more revisionism though. On Trevor Phillips' watch, it was EHRC's job to write the statutory code for the new equality act. It says things like this:

'If a service provider provides single- or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate.

'any exception to the prohibition of discrimination must be applied as restrictively as possible and the denial of a service to a transsexual person should only occur in exceptional circumstances. A service provider can have a policy on provision of the service to transsexual users but should apply this policy on a case-by-case basis in order to determine whether the exclusion of a transsexual person is proportionate in the individual circumstances.'

I found the consultation documents on archived EHRC pages. Put the following links in web.archive.org for archive pages with downloadable links:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/equality-act-codes-practice-post-consultation-report

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/legislative-framework/equality-bill/equality-bill-codes-of-practice-consultation/

The original draft of the stat code was very sensible and just went through what the EA says in clear language. That's not the version we ended up with. The post-consultation report says:

'Various transsexual stakeholder groups responded to the formal consultation and also participated in the parallel consultation events taking place on the non-statutory guidance. Feedback from the consultation events was incorporated into the employment and services codes where appropriate, particularly on issues of confidentiality, use of single sex services and the legal definition of transgender.

'A number of concerns were raised about the exceptions, in particular the exceptions for charities, single sex services and separate services.
These sections have been revised as a result.'

At the end of the document there is a list of those consulted which includes Press for Change, GIRES and a:gender (the civil service TRA org).

So it's a bit rich to hear Trevor Phillips talking about people who should know better who have allowed their organisations to become captured when that is exactly what happened at EHRC under his watch. It's easy to point at Stonewall etc., they have been dreadful, but the damage was done right from the start in EHRC's statutory code. It gave the TRA orgs a really solid basis on which to build their misinformation campaigns. Stonewall etc. have spent the past decade telling us that their guidance is fully compliant with the EA stat code and the worst of it is they were right.

Datun · 18/04/2025 16:04

PencilsInSpace · 18/04/2025 15:59

This is just more revisionism though. On Trevor Phillips' watch, it was EHRC's job to write the statutory code for the new equality act. It says things like this:

'If a service provider provides single- or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate.

'any exception to the prohibition of discrimination must be applied as restrictively as possible and the denial of a service to a transsexual person should only occur in exceptional circumstances. A service provider can have a policy on provision of the service to transsexual users but should apply this policy on a case-by-case basis in order to determine whether the exclusion of a transsexual person is proportionate in the individual circumstances.'

I found the consultation documents on archived EHRC pages. Put the following links in web.archive.org for archive pages with downloadable links:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/equality-act-codes-practice-post-consultation-report

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/legislative-framework/equality-bill/equality-bill-codes-of-practice-consultation/

The original draft of the stat code was very sensible and just went through what the EA says in clear language. That's not the version we ended up with. The post-consultation report says:

'Various transsexual stakeholder groups responded to the formal consultation and also participated in the parallel consultation events taking place on the non-statutory guidance. Feedback from the consultation events was incorporated into the employment and services codes where appropriate, particularly on issues of confidentiality, use of single sex services and the legal definition of transgender.

'A number of concerns were raised about the exceptions, in particular the exceptions for charities, single sex services and separate services.
These sections have been revised as a result.'

At the end of the document there is a list of those consulted which includes Press for Change, GIRES and a:gender (the civil service TRA org).

So it's a bit rich to hear Trevor Phillips talking about people who should know better who have allowed their organisations to become captured when that is exactly what happened at EHRC under his watch. It's easy to point at Stonewall etc., they have been dreadful, but the damage was done right from the start in EHRC's statutory code. It gave the TRA orgs a really solid basis on which to build their misinformation campaigns. Stonewall etc. have spent the past decade telling us that their guidance is fully compliant with the EA stat code and the worst of it is they were right.

He said he left before it was infiltrated. Is that not the case?

Pleasealexa · 18/04/2025 16:08

And shocked by how biased and inconsequential Newsagents was

So was I. I don't think I'll listen to them again as found their discussion so biased and anti women's rights (whilst thinking they were super cool for supporting trans rights). Their statement "it affects a tiny minority" showed a lack of understanding that highlighted they should not have attempted to have a discussion, since they clearly were clueless/biased.

The Rest is Politics -my guess is Alistair (6ft 3) will trot out usual dismissive argument "but my loo at home is gender neutral and I never feel intimidated"

Mollyollydolly · 18/04/2025 16:12

I used to really like Lewis Goodall, now he winds me up so much. Utterly vacuous. Sopal I find unpleasant there's something about him sends my antennae up. I'm surprised Maitliss didn't push back more, she's quoted on the front of Hannah Barnes's book saying it's brilliant, she knows what the issues are. Nul points from me.

PencilsInSpace · 18/04/2025 16:15

Datun · 18/04/2025 16:04

He said he left before it was infiltrated. Is that not the case?

He was chair from 2007-2012. The EA came in in 2010 and the statutory code in 2011 so this all happened on his watch.

Mollyollydolly · 18/04/2025 16:15

Trevor Phillips is interesting and shows how things changed over the last decade or so. He's now regarded by many on the left as being on the right. Didn't they kick him out of Labour at some point?

teawamutu · 18/04/2025 16:19

Sausagenbacon · 18/04/2025 15:25

I love the FT but it's an utterly lost cause on this.
Waiting for The Rest is Politics.

Jesus, I'm afraid you're going to be very disappointed then.

Rory is wet and hand wringing (his comprehension of women's concerns is encapsulated by observing how much better Afghanistan is under this incarnation of the Taliban).

Alistair is aggressive, sneery and dismissive but identifies as well-informed because mypart erfiona and his silly handmaiden daughter have assured him it's all lovely and all women who aren't nasty gammons are happy to share with the lovely tranz.

No, I don't listen to them any more. Yes, I'm pretty salty about it.

Bluenose1966 · 18/04/2025 16:24

teawamutu · 18/04/2025 16:19

Jesus, I'm afraid you're going to be very disappointed then.

Rory is wet and hand wringing (his comprehension of women's concerns is encapsulated by observing how much better Afghanistan is under this incarnation of the Taliban).

Alistair is aggressive, sneery and dismissive but identifies as well-informed because mypart erfiona and his silly handmaiden daughter have assured him it's all lovely and all women who aren't nasty gammons are happy to share with the lovely tranz.

No, I don't listen to them any more. Yes, I'm pretty salty about it.

Funny how we are all different as I really like The Rest Is Politics and The Rest is Politics Leading.
Never used to be fussed on either Rory or Alastair but think it is the most entertaining and informative podcast I listen to.

peakedtraybake · 18/04/2025 16:25

I also haven't listened to TRIP in months/years due to their pathetic and wilful ignorance on this. I might tune in to hear whether they dismiss the judgment as unkind, TERFish and simplistic too. I'd guess they'll say that they have always agreed with this reasonable interpretation of the EA and if only women had taken a less shrill tone on all this, any nastiness could have been avoided.

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Sausagenbacon · 18/04/2025 16:27

I probably stopped listening the same time as you teawamatu.
But, in the intervening period, I'd be interested to see if they have modified.

Mollyollydolly · 18/04/2025 16:28

I don't listen to TRIP anymore. They're misogynists both of them and I was a massive Rory Stewart fan. I used to think I was learning from them, but now I just don't trust them on anything because the one subject I know about and could challenge them on they were absolutely and utterly woeful.

teawamutu · 18/04/2025 16:28

Bluenose1966 · 18/04/2025 16:24

Funny how we are all different as I really like The Rest Is Politics and The Rest is Politics Leading.
Never used to be fussed on either Rory or Alastair but think it is the most entertaining and informative podcast I listen to.

I loved it, I really did.

But they are so very bad on this issue - so smugly convinced they're right, despite clearly not having bothered their arses to understand the first thing about it - that I'm afraid it rather knocked the scales from my eyes.

If they're arrogantly wrong about this, I wondered, what else are they opining on that they know fuck all about? And why, therefore, would I listen to them? I can hear under-informed male entitlement anywhere.

So I stopped.

TRIP US, on the other hand, is fabulous. And TRIH with Tom and Dom. They all know to listen to women.

Mollyollydolly · 18/04/2025 16:44

Not a podcast and might have been posted elsewhere but it's so angry and acerbic it made me laugh out loud so I'm sharing. I used to despise Brendan O'Neill, I don't anymore.
www.spiked-online.com/2025/04/17/the-hilarious-meltdown-of-men-who-think-theyre-women/

CurlewKate · 18/04/2025 16:52

Wondering what Electoral Dysfunction might make of it. I’m not prepared to get into bed with The Telegraph just because I might agree with them on this issue…..

HesSoBadHesGood · 18/04/2025 16:53

Mollyollydolly · 18/04/2025 16:44

Not a podcast and might have been posted elsewhere but it's so angry and acerbic it made me laugh out loud so I'm sharing. I used to despise Brendan O'Neill, I don't anymore.
www.spiked-online.com/2025/04/17/the-hilarious-meltdown-of-men-who-think-theyre-women/

I was just about to post that! Instead I will give you this:

SionnachRuadh · 18/04/2025 16:59

I'll be interested to see if it makes it across the Atlantic. I often listen to Megyn Kelly who's been consistently great on this - and entertainingly tore John Oliver a new one the other day.

JoyousEagle · 18/04/2025 17:09

ForAzureSeal · 18/04/2025 14:09

Newsagents tried to do it. Emily Maitlis was attempting to provide the nuanced view, John Sopel feeling a bit uncomfortable and then - of course - Lewis Goodall got all on his Millennial high horse about the "frothing" media (in a very frothing manner) and entirely missed the point of the judgement. I was begging for Emily to come back in to pull him up but she didn't. Disappointing.

She did a little bit when he said something like “the main danger for women comes from biological men, not trans women” (which is obviously a nonsensical sentence since the one pre-requisite for being a trans woman is that you are a biological man).

It also absolutely infuriated me how he kept saying things like “if you’re trans it means you live as a woman” “if you have a GRC it’s because you want to live as a woman”. Only about once did he add “… or a man” at the end. Listening to it you’d half think trans men didn’t exist. They were completely ignored.