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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

1000 replies

HoundOfTheBasketballs · 16/04/2025 20:44

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

OP posts:
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13
55larry · 18/04/2025 16:34

My son works in a secondary school which introduced gender neutral toilets in a two storey building. Now the boys use the first floor toilets and the girls use the ground floor toilets. In other words the children voted with their feet!

OvaHere · 18/04/2025 16:51

WearyAuldWumman · 18/04/2025 16:13

I have a relative through marriage who won't let her daughters cut their hair short, in case their schoolmates think that they're trans. They're at primary school.

In the meantime, both their great-aunts have short hair and the daughters seem to have no difficulty in realising that they are in fact women.

In my final permanent post, the girls who temporarily became trans were those who came up to secondary school with short hair.

40 yrs ago, no one blinked at a girl with short hair in the classroom. Nowadays, I'm seeing girls coming in with what I would term full evening make-up including fake lashes, fake nails...I could have wept when one girl said that she get ups at 5 in the morning to do her hair and make-up.

I feel so sorry for girls nowadays.

I could have wept when one girl said that she get ups at 5 in the morning to do her hair and make-up.

To be fair I used to do that in the 80s/90s, perhaps not quite 5am but early. I favoured a goth look back then that was quite high maintenance.

It's true though that you rarely see short hairstyles on girls now unless it's accompanied by a non girl identity.

WearyAuldWumman · 18/04/2025 16:51

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 18/04/2025 16:34

An exception is made for the Catholic school.

So they are acknowledging that belief in trans is a faith thing, presumably?

I thnk that they're doing so without realising it.

They're certainly acknowledging that the Catholic school has the right to opt out because of the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

WearyAuldWumman · 18/04/2025 17:00

Thatcannotberight · 18/04/2025 16:29

@WearyAuldWumman it's difficult to find out where the pressure comes from and who is a true believer. I don't see our county backing down. We do at least have three choices of toilets at his school. Funniest thing was a girl refusing to use the Gender Neutral facilities because she isn't " A Gender Neutral ". Neither boys or girls want to use them, even when they're the nearest ones.

I can't remember the precise name of the organisation, but there's some kind of LGBT youth charity which has sent people into secondary schools in Scotland. It's had a great deal of influence. One of the founders has since been discredited.

I'm also seeing schools vying for various Stonewall awards.

Pupils from the other end of the county went to their local paper to demand unisex toilets.

In the article, one non-binary girl and one trans-boy voiced their views. They didn't want to use the disabled toilets because it might cause difficulty for a disabled student who needed access (a fair point). The trans-boy stated that using girls' toilets caused dysphoria but using the boys' toilets would also cause dysphoria because it would be obvious that the boys were physically different.

(I've tried and failed to find the article. If come across it, I'll add a link.)

WearyAuldWumman · 18/04/2025 17:04

Just to add that Mermaids has had an influence via Stonewall, because Stonewall documents for schools advised schools that that was the place to go to for resources for trans pupils and their parents.

MarvellousMonsters · 18/04/2025 18:56

Arran2024 · 18/04/2025 16:15

You would think that non binary would be the way to go. But non-binary is as part of the + part of LBGT+ as any of the other identities. They take the identity as part of the edgy, cool part of being in the rainbow family, not because they reject gender.

In fact, according to Wikipedia: "Non-binary people may identify as an intermediate or separate third gender,[6] identify with more than one gender[7][8] or no gender, or have a fluctuating gender identity." So these people often switch gender ID - one minute they are male, then female.

For fucks sake. It’s like people are trying to overcomplicate life. I’m so done.

Hoardasurass · 18/04/2025 18:57

Thegreatestdancer · 16/04/2025 23:39

But this is specifically about trans women.

Transwomen are more likely to be sex offenders than the average male

Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?
MarvellousMonsters · 18/04/2025 19:00

WearyAuldWumman · 18/04/2025 17:00

I can't remember the precise name of the organisation, but there's some kind of LGBT youth charity which has sent people into secondary schools in Scotland. It's had a great deal of influence. One of the founders has since been discredited.

I'm also seeing schools vying for various Stonewall awards.

Pupils from the other end of the county went to their local paper to demand unisex toilets.

In the article, one non-binary girl and one trans-boy voiced their views. They didn't want to use the disabled toilets because it might cause difficulty for a disabled student who needed access (a fair point). The trans-boy stated that using girls' toilets caused dysphoria but using the boys' toilets would also cause dysphoria because it would be obvious that the boys were physically different.

(I've tried and failed to find the article. If come across it, I'll add a link.)

The trans-boy stated that using girls' toilets caused dysphoria but using the boys' toilets would also cause dysphoria because it would be obvious that the boys were physically different.

Yes. Because you are not a boy

Thats not dysphoria, that’s just a reality check.

ViolasandViolets · 18/04/2025 20:26

Hoardasurass · 18/04/2025 18:57

Transwomen are more likely to be sex offenders than the average male

Just on this statistic; the ONS admitted the census overestimated the number of trans people. Which means the rate of sexual offending amongst men who identify as women is even higher than suggested here.

LesbianNana · 18/04/2025 20:29
No Way GIF

Nerp.

fromorbit · 18/04/2025 21:37

Well actually the Mumsnetters care so much for the "trans" community that they are about to expel all the sex criminals from within it and force them to say they are men again. You will all be so much safer and the wider public will like you more.

You are welcome.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5317463-rapists-can-no-longer-claim-to-be-women?page=2&reply=143648659

LibbysBodiceButtons · 18/04/2025 21:49

GCAcademic · 16/04/2025 20:47

Trans people have the same rights today that they had yesterday. All this judgement has done is clarify that they have rights based on their gender reassignment and not the rights of the opposite sex. As has been the case since 2004.

Does this mean if a trans person has a GRC they can use the single sex facilities of their chosen sex, i.e. a trans woman can still use female facilities if they have a GRC?

spannasaurus · 18/04/2025 21:52

LibbysBodiceButtons · 18/04/2025 21:49

Does this mean if a trans person has a GRC they can use the single sex facilities of their chosen sex, i.e. a trans woman can still use female facilities if they have a GRC?

No. It doesn't matter if someone has a GRC or not. They must use the facilities that match their actual sex

ViolasandViolets · 18/04/2025 21:52

LibbysBodiceButtons · 18/04/2025 21:49

Does this mean if a trans person has a GRC they can use the single sex facilities of their chosen sex, i.e. a trans woman can still use female facilities if they have a GRC?

No.

LibbysBodiceButtons · 18/04/2025 22:16

spannasaurus · 18/04/2025 21:52

No. It doesn't matter if someone has a GRC or not. They must use the facilities that match their actual sex

Poster said they have rights based on their GRC so surely if that states they're female then they can use female spaces? Or is the poster wrong? Sorry I don't understand it

TheOtherRaven · 18/04/2025 22:21

From the judgement summary:

Interpreting “sex” as certificated sex would cut across the definitions of “man” and “woman” and thus the protected characteristic of sex in an incoherent way. It would create heterogeneous groupings. As a matter of ordinary language, the provisions relating to sex discrimination, and especially those relating to pregnancy and maternity (sections 13(6), 17 and 18), and to protection from risks specifically affecting women (Schedule 22, paragraph 2), can only be interpreted as referring to biological sex (paras 172, 177-188).

Gender reassignment and sex are separate bases for discrimination and inequality. The interpretation favoured by the EHRC and the Scottish Ministers would create two sub-groups within those who share the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, giving trans persons who possess a GRC greater rights than those who do not. Those seeking to perform their obligations under the Act would have no obvious means of distinguishing between the two sub-groups to whom different duties were owed, particularly since they could not ask persons whether they had obtained a GRC (paras 198-203).

That interpretation would also seriously weaken the protections given to those with the protected characteristic of sexual orientation for example by interfering with their ability to have lesbian-only spaces and associations (paras 204-209).

The interpretation of the EA 2010 (ie the biological sex reading), which we conclude is the only correct one, does not cause disadvantage to trans people, with or without a GRC. In the light of case law interpreting the relevant provisions, they would be able to invoke the provisions on direct discrimination and harassment, and indirect discrimination. A certificated sex reading is not required to give them those protections (paras 248-263).

We therefore conclude that the provisions of the EA 2010 which we have discussed are provisions to which section 9(3) of the GRA 2004 applies. The meaning of the terms “sex”, “man” and “woman” in the EA 2010 is biological and not certificated sex. Any other interpretation would render the EA 2010 incoherent and impracticable to operate (para 264).

A person with a GRC in the female gender does not come within the definition of “woman” for the purposes of sex discrimination in section 11 of the EA 2010. That in turn means that the definition of “woman” in section 2 of the 2018 Act, which Scottish Ministers accept must bear the same meaning as the term “woman” in section 11 and section 212 of the EA 2010, is limited to biological women and does not include trans women with a GRC.

spannasaurus · 18/04/2025 22:31

LibbysBodiceButtons · 18/04/2025 22:16

Poster said they have rights based on their GRC so surely if that states they're female then they can use female spaces? Or is the poster wrong? Sorry I don't understand it

Edited

They have rights under the Equality Act on the basis of their protected characteristic of gender reassignment. A gender recognition certificate (GRC) is not required in order for someone to have the PC of GR

LibbysBodiceButtons · 18/04/2025 22:32

Ok thanks, I'm a bit clearer now. So a fully transitioned trans woman is now going to have to go into men's toilets and vice versa with transitioned trans men having to go into womens facilities, it that right? Seems crazy to me

LibbysBodiceButtons · 18/04/2025 22:33

I really fear for the safety of trans people if this has to happen. It's absolutely awful

TheOtherRaven · 18/04/2025 22:34

I shouldn't worry, I'd think the supreme court probably thought it all through quite carefully in the seven years this was all rolling for, and there were some issues for women that really mattered a bit too. Did you find those issues absolutely awful too, or just the possible issues ahead for men?

Notaflippinclue · 18/04/2025 22:37

Yes - or find a third space - but really why are people seemingly spending half their lives looking for public toilets

spannasaurus · 18/04/2025 22:37

LibbysBodiceButtons · 18/04/2025 22:32

Ok thanks, I'm a bit clearer now. So a fully transitioned trans woman is now going to have to go into men's toilets and vice versa with transitioned trans men having to go into womens facilities, it that right? Seems crazy to me

95% of transwomen have a penis.
What do you consider fully transitioned ?

LibbysBodiceButtons · 18/04/2025 22:37

It just feels like persecution, like Jewish people etc, it's frightening that people have such awful attitudes to a small group of people who are just trying to live their lives

Arran2024 · 18/04/2025 22:39

LibbysBodiceButtons · 18/04/2025 22:32

Ok thanks, I'm a bit clearer now. So a fully transitioned trans woman is now going to have to go into men's toilets and vice versa with transitioned trans men having to go into womens facilities, it that right? Seems crazy to me

All biological men will be expected to use the gents. You do know that hardly any men have surgery, right? They just dress as women. They may take hormones to grow breasts as well but surgery is really uncommon.

We can encourage men to be more welcoming. This isn't something women have to fix.

Codlingmoths · 18/04/2025 22:39

LibbysBodiceButtons · 18/04/2025 22:37

It just feels like persecution, like Jewish people etc, it's frightening that people have such awful attitudes to a small group of people who are just trying to live their lives

Can you answer the part about fully transitioned? If you’re male, have a working penis, not to mention an interest in sex with women as many of them do, you only have to look at the dating sites to see that (oh, and the sex offender stats) are you fully transitioned?

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