Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

I feel like the more we have to logicalise the plainly obvious for them, the more they feel they’re worthy of response and engagement and persuasion. If by now they cannot wrap their heads around the most basic of science and the most basic of feminism, then they’re never going to, because you cannot rationalise somebody out of a place they didn’t rationalise themselves into. From now I will have zero engagement with TWAW, because every point that can be made has been made, and I will only engage where it is needed to continue enforcing women’s rights (eg signing petitions, writing to MPs). TRAs and their deluded supporters will now have to argue among themselves.

Completely. I once asked a newish friend (parent in a club) during a whole grim debate about this why it's always women who have to make space when someone's feelings are hurty. She had no answer. Tho she also hated JKR despite having not actually read what she'd said on twitter back when she upset half the internet. "I don't want to read anything that disgusting woman has said!" ...so how do you know she's the devil in a dress then? 😑

Oh goodness me. Firstly, a personal attack with no good reason. Cheers for that.

Secondly, I'm not a teenager and if I were I'd likely be v.v. clued up. Thirdly, those who are not and are saying anything making mock in a classroom would be corrected/verbally disciplined by a teacher. Fourthly, THE only point being addressed in this sub topic is what the teacher is doing when the pupil does this.

Fair enough, but if a pupil is mocking this in the classroom it's still not appropriate and they need to be at least told off.

If I said my pronouns were flea/clown/fairie how could you tell whether I was mocking pronouns or whether these were the pronouns that I identified as

What women have dealt with over the years this has exploded is the reaction men have when women say no. I’m all out of fucks to give over how sad or frightened that makes men feel. When women can’t even gather to talk about our lives without being harassed, hounded, intimidated, screamed at, smeared & held up as ‘hateful bigots’ - I will not waste any time feeling anything other that complete disinterest in the plight of anyone who sits back silent at best, but mostly cheering it on or engaging in it, when this is how ‘trans rights’ are agitated for.

I suggest anyone who falls into the ‘umbrella’ starts to think of solutions to their problems without any recourse to women’s spaces, resources, labour, attention, coddling or sympathy & figure out how to create the spaces needed to function as you wish to through life separate & distinct from female only single sex services/spaces/provision/support. Just leave women’s shit alone.

Are you talking about the boy who claimed that there are 64 genders?

I'm in the process of reading through responses made to other posters. I'm still unclear as to which pupil you're objecting to - I think I mentioned 4 in my post

I'm also not absolutely certain as to what precisely you mean by 'gender' in the context of your posts. Believe you me, that's an important point in the context of my job.

Without outing yourself, are you able to tell me which subject(s)you teach? It might help me to understand your use of the word 'gender'.

I've read through some more of your responses. It would be helpful if you could clarify your understanding of 'gender' as I've said above @Springee.

Assuming that you were referring to one of the other two boys, did you mean the boy who claimed that his pronouns were 'xe/xim', or the boy who responded?

Again, if you could let me know which subjects and stages you teach - and a very rough idea of where you are - it might help me to answer your question so that I can give you all of the information that you seek. I'm assuming that you're not in Scotland and therefore are not fully aware of the education system here (in the same way that I don't know all the intricacies of the education system in other parts of the world.

It is relevant.

I hear this over and over again. But the men in my life - Dad, brother, sons, uncles, friends - are also lovely, caring, thoughtful people just trying to live their lives in peace.

Should that mean that we should do away with all single-sex spaces? Have mixed prisons, changing rooms, loos, sporting events, refuges, rape crisis centres? Because the men I know are nice?

This is where we're at. That an apparent teacher cant actually tell whether identifying as a clown or a flea is serious or not 🤣

and there's no way to tell if it's mockery. What you gonna do? Ask someone if they identify as a piss taker?

'You identify as a clown. Now, is that serious or not, because I can't tell'.

And - I'll have to take your word for it 😁

A good dose of healthy mockery of this ridiculous concept would do kids a lot of good in my opinion.

We wouldn’t need to keep clarifying if she didn’t misrepresent what we’ve said.

I was about to say this.

Stupid, illogical ideas deserve mockery. What we shouldn't do it 'tell off' children who are smart enough to see through the bs and brave enough to call it out.

Ofc that doesn't extend to mocking of an individual.

The trouble I have with some of the posts on this thread and the reason they spark such rage in me is that some posters are putting forward one side of the 'debate' (for want of a better word) and acting as though that position is neutral. It isn't.

They seem to be starting from the position that anyone who will not be guilted into, for example, using incorrect pronouns is hateful, not being nice enough, rather than simply not sharing a niche and very recent belief.

We're being told it's hypothetical argument to most of us, as if by simply being female we don't have enough skin in the game to have an opinion (women's rights - they're just not that important are they? ). The implication being that our voices aren't as important!

The bias oozes out of nearly every sentence - the apparent belief that we want too much and that this makes us unkind.As if many of us don't know and love trans people as friends and relatives and children - while at the same time still wanting our words, rights, sports and spaces to be protected.

Women are so over being scolded for not being nice enough.

You are arguing with the wrong people.

Edit for typos

I'm waiting to hear back from @Springee so that I can give a full response, but I'll repeat what I've already said above - in my LA the policy is to hold a restorative conversation.

I'll happily give fuller details once I know Springee's precise concern.

At the risk of sounding thick (I don't work in education) what is a 'restorative conversation'?

A non blaming chat type thing?

Yes - that's a very good way of putting it. TBH, I think that it can be nonsensical. In my view - and yes, this is only my view - there's a risk of empowering bullies.

"Now Johnny - how do you think Mark felt when you punched him in the face? Do you think you should really have done that?"

It started out here many years ago, but has gradually taken over. 20 years ago, SACRO - an organisation which is supposed to help young people avoid becoming offenders - wanted me to participate in a "restorative conversation'" with a 15 yr old boy who had punched me in the stomach... (I was in my classroom at break minding my own business when two boys came running into my room. One proceeded to assault the other and then punched me when I tried to get to my phone.)

The other expression often used here is "restorative justice". As soon as anyone expresses reservations over it, the response is always "Ah...but it has to be done correctly."

A bit like Communism?

"No, no! We're not yet Communist. We're only Socialist working towards Communism!"

Iswym.

Yes, I'd have thought that would only work with someone who did wrong because they hadn't really thought about it, or were really led astray by others.

If you've got someone who thinks it's their right to act like an arsehole, Johnny would probably reply 'Mark felt sad and scared which is exactly what I was aiming for - mission accomplished! '

People who identify as non binary define themselves against a binary they project onto everyone else.

Brilliantly put. How can some people be so precious about their own identity and everyone’s perception thereof, and yet simply assume others are happy being “binary”?

The other response from bullies can be "Don't care!"

Why does this need a reply exactly. You have said that pupils are asked to think about stuff as a restorative policy rather than a sanction. Seems good to me.

Obvs it's mockery

It's completely obvious both are minor disruptive classroom behaviour, there is nothing further to say