Page 34 | Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

HoundOfTheBasketballs · 2025-04-16T19:44:48+00:00

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us. Is there no middle ground in this debate? I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

BlueLimes · 18/04/2025 07:08

murasaki · 17/04/2025 23:27

And behaves in a very male manner.

Basically we could always tell, we were just scared of the repercussions of saying anything if at work, for example. Now we don't have to be.

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I think NHS will drag heels, yesterday an email was sent saying TWAW etc - I suspect we’re going to have a lot of we stand with you and see you statements over next few months. It’s maddening.

Diverze · 18/04/2025 09:09

Datun · 18/04/2025 00:07

Diverze, i'm not sure if that was meant to be snippy. But you can't ask for empathy on the one hand, and then get sarky if you get it.

I'm not sure you realise, but there are loads of women on here whose children identify as trans. And men.

Not theoretical at all. But they disagree with it.

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No, I wasn't being snippy or snarky.

Diverze · 18/04/2025 09:27

NameChangedForThisDiscussion · 18/04/2025 00:01

You said

In what way would it be helpful to say to my 23 year old that they are a man?

Since women are not in the habit of walking up to random trans identified men and calling them men the only way we would be calling him a man would be by using the correct pronouns so I assumed that’s what you meant.

If you are literally asking us not to walk up to your son and call him a man you are asking us to not do something we have not previously done and have no intention of doing and don’t even know who he is so couldn’t do that even if we felt inclined to. As far as I can remember I have never seen any poster on here propose we do that to any trans identified men so that’s a peculiar request.

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Well yes, I didn't think it was much to ask when I said it in my first post. I said "There's no need to call her a man, that's hurtful. She does no harm. We both know it's the reality but I guess it's a bit like calling someone fat to their face, or ugly. One can secretly acknowledge the reality but be polite enough not to express it in a hurtful way."

Then quite a few people responded by saying that acknowledging someone was a man and calling them a man would not be offensive because it's not a judgement call, unlike being fat or ugly, it's a fact. They said that being male isn't offensive so it's fine to call her that. So then forgive me if I did assume that they meant that they would actually tell her she is a man if she was in a shared (unisex) space. Especially since I also said "It's absolutely ok to acknowledge she is not a bio female. I actually think it's mentally healthier to acknowledge that she was once a boy", by which I meant we would both be fine if you only ever described her as trans, a trans person or a trans woman and never ever said just "woman". I do this myself, I use trans daughter not daughter or son.

Also @NameChangedForThisDiscussion it's obviously clear from the context of my post that I am using quotation marks to espouse a theoretical viewpoint where one rejects going along with a person's gender identity, and in those circumstances one would use natal pronouns. Honestly not the gotcha you thought.

EasternStandard · 18/04/2025 09:31

Diverze · 17/04/2025 23:29

I don't believe I have asked you to do any such thing.

I said that it would not be kind to walk up to my DC and say "you are a man". Why would anyone do that if my DC is just walking down the road? I thought we believed that trans people are free to express themselves as they wish and live in peace and security provided they don't ride roughshod over women's rights. Walking down the road is not a female space.

There are multiple hundreds of posts in agreement with gender critical feminism on this board in the last couple of days. I think you will survive being offended that I choose to use feminine pronouns for my trans daughter.

Edited

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I don’t think pp in here would walk up to anyone and make a statement like this.

They might not use the pronouns you’d like though in general conversation.

Diverze · 18/04/2025 09:35

@RedToothBrush
I would have agreed with you and this was the approach I took earlier when DC was mid teens.

I thought it had worked, albeit DC's mental health crashed within the year and he was deeply depressed (as in, in bed 24/7 almost hospitalised depressed) for several years.

Now DC is an adult. Turns out it never really went away, just got suppressed for a while. There is no partner or children involved which might change things. Respectfully, you do it your way in your circumstances and I will do it mine. I don't know your family member, and you don't know mine. Maybe in ten years time I will wish I had done it different but we are all just doing the best we can in the circumstances we find ourselves in, aren't we?

LobeliaBaggins · 18/04/2025 09:35

@Diverze I have great sympathy for you.

I think the ruling may actually help people like your child who don't want to barge into women's spaces.

Diverze · 18/04/2025 09:37

LobeliaBaggins · 18/04/2025 09:35

@Diverze I have great sympathy for you.

I think the ruling may actually help people like your child who don't want to barge into women's spaces.

I agree - as I have said a number of times!

Thank you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/04/2025 09:38

EasternStandard · 18/04/2025 09:31

I don’t think pp in here would walk up to anyone and make a statement like this.

They might not use the pronouns you’d like though in general conversation.

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As has repeatedly been made clear to this poster.

Lovelysummerdays · 18/04/2025 09:41

Springee · 16/04/2025 21:18

So why don't we see this as the criminal fringe? Just as we would any other.

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Good guys stay out so bad guys stand out. If places are single (biological) sex then you can assume that every bloke in the ladies is a wrong ‘un and act accordingly.

Datun · 18/04/2025 09:52

Diverze · 18/04/2025 09:09

No, I wasn't being snippy or snarky.

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OK, sorry I misinterpreted it. It's not always easy to tell!

WhoMeMissYesYouMiss · 18/04/2025 10:47

Diverze · 18/04/2025 09:35

@RedToothBrush
I would have agreed with you and this was the approach I took earlier when DC was mid teens.

I thought it had worked, albeit DC's mental health crashed within the year and he was deeply depressed (as in, in bed 24/7 almost hospitalised depressed) for several years.

Now DC is an adult. Turns out it never really went away, just got suppressed for a while. There is no partner or children involved which might change things. Respectfully, you do it your way in your circumstances and I will do it mine. I don't know your family member, and you don't know mine. Maybe in ten years time I will wish I had done it different but we are all just doing the best we can in the circumstances we find ourselves in, aren't we?

Your DC is lucky to have you.

I have no ill will towards TW, I just think they need their own spaces. I am quite tired of the narrative that somehow recognising biology is taking the country back to the dark ages.

EasternStandard · 18/04/2025 10:50

Diverze · 18/04/2025 09:27

Well yes, I didn't think it was much to ask when I said it in my first post. I said "There's no need to call her a man, that's hurtful. She does no harm. We both know it's the reality but I guess it's a bit like calling someone fat to their face, or ugly. One can secretly acknowledge the reality but be polite enough not to express it in a hurtful way."

Then quite a few people responded by saying that acknowledging someone was a man and calling them a man would not be offensive because it's not a judgement call, unlike being fat or ugly, it's a fact. They said that being male isn't offensive so it's fine to call her that. So then forgive me if I did assume that they meant that they would actually tell her she is a man if she was in a shared (unisex) space. Especially since I also said "It's absolutely ok to acknowledge she is not a bio female. I actually think it's mentally healthier to acknowledge that she was once a boy", by which I meant we would both be fine if you only ever described her as trans, a trans person or a trans woman and never ever said just "woman". I do this myself, I use trans daughter not daughter or son.

Also @NameChangedForThisDiscussion it's obviously clear from the context of my post that I am using quotation marks to espouse a theoretical viewpoint where one rejects going along with a person's gender identity, and in those circumstances one would use natal pronouns. Honestly not the gotcha you thought.

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I’m not sure within a pattern of conversation someone would say you’re a man. They might use the pronouns they feel most comfortable with, which I don’t think anyone should be compelled to change.

I also think women are careful not to do what might provoke someone they don’t know. But this leads more to wanting the law to change rather than looking for any confrontation.

Look at FWS a legal challenge and singing, woman are pretty good at channeling change into better ways.

Myalternate · 18/04/2025 10:50

Diverze · 17/04/2025 19:20

@Walkaround "What does being “trans” mean to your trans daughter? Why does she think she is trans? What, in her mind, is wrong with her being viewed as male and described as he/him, and how does that fit with her knowing she is not a woman and not using the Ladies’ toilets?"

I don't pretend to know it all. I know it first started in mid teen years and was suppressed (I ignored it, though I knew, was very smug when it appeared to fade after not being either affirmed or denied). There then followed 5 or 6 years of burnout, deep depression, darkened bedroom type scenario. Failed to wash, change clothes etc. social care assessment led to PA support which led to leaving the house more often and a better mental health situation. Then another crash last Summer whereupon a cousin DC is very close to told me DC desperately wanted a dress but was terrified I would not accept them (I was quite vocally GC about child protection failures and a dislike of the ideology being taught in schools). We had a conversation where I assured DC that we would love them always. They explained that they just feel "better" , more "real" using a female name. They have never explicitly insisted on female pronouns but are happy when these are used. They don't tend to go out wearing dresses (occasionally to friend's house nearby). Since known they are accepted it's become much clearer how they have grappled with and been consumed by the dysphoria, and wearing a bra appears to help, as does being clean shaven. Always had long hair. Since we have used female name DC has started volunteering, gets up and dressed every day, does jobs around the house unbidden, and is just lighter and so much happier. Personality wise they are exactly the same. They have not asked us to cover or remove old photos and the name they have chosen is the name they would have had if they had been born female. Middle name is a male name named after DH's brother who died young and DC has not changed this name which I find immensely respectful. They are not rejecting us or the family or our history or rewriting their childhood. They just feel more valid using that name. I don't pretend to understand why, but it has made all the difference in the world.

Recognising that I cannot control responses I would very much appreciate people not picking through this to identify gotchas or tell me why I am an idiot if they do not have a trans identifying child themselves. I knew it all, in theory.
Walkabout, I have answered your questions assuming they were made in good faith. I hope they were. I feel like mutual understanding is important to begin to build a future that protects vulnerable harmless people like my trans daughter AND women and girls.

Diverze In an earlier post you wrote …

“Not exactly, it's more subtle than that. It was taught. It's not just a social contagion. This country told my vulnerable kid this explained his horror of his body.”

I assumed your child had been having counselling and through that, came to believe they would be much happier if they transitioned. 😵‍💫

Diverze · 18/04/2025 11:01

Myalternate · 18/04/2025 10:50

Diverze In an earlier post you wrote …

“Not exactly, it's more subtle than that. It was taught. It's not just a social contagion. This country told my vulnerable kid this explained his horror of his body.”

I assumed your child had been having counselling and through that, came to believe they would be much happier if they transitioned. 😵‍💫

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No, thankfully! DC says that dysphoria and not identifying with being male began at around 15/16. In DC's school they had had the gender gingerbread stupidity taught and I guess DC found this helped explain the discomfort of DC's changing sexed body. DC was already identified as autistic.
The dysphoria was horrific btw. Hiding under duvets because they are too ugly to be seen, covering their face. Staying in the dark. DC did get counselling but it never explored gender identity at that time - was for depression and anxiety.

RedToothBrush · 18/04/2025 11:02

Diverze · 18/04/2025 09:35

@RedToothBrush
I would have agreed with you and this was the approach I took earlier when DC was mid teens.

I thought it had worked, albeit DC's mental health crashed within the year and he was deeply depressed (as in, in bed 24/7 almost hospitalised depressed) for several years.

Now DC is an adult. Turns out it never really went away, just got suppressed for a while. There is no partner or children involved which might change things. Respectfully, you do it your way in your circumstances and I will do it mine. I don't know your family member, and you don't know mine. Maybe in ten years time I will wish I had done it different but we are all just doing the best we can in the circumstances we find ourselves in, aren't we?

But the point is if you think everyone should do things their way (which btw is a human right under belief) this also means that yes we can call your son, male or he if we see fit even if it might upset him. Because that's the the truth.

What we can't do, is make a song and dance about it and behave in a way that we wouldn't with any other male. So the way you said he might matter.

This matters to a lot of women and we feel the language we use matters.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2025 11:10

Diverze · 18/04/2025 11:01

No, thankfully! DC says that dysphoria and not identifying with being male began at around 15/16. In DC's school they had had the gender gingerbread stupidity taught and I guess DC found this helped explain the discomfort of DC's changing sexed body. DC was already identified as autistic.
The dysphoria was horrific btw. Hiding under duvets because they are too ugly to be seen, covering their face. Staying in the dark. DC did get counselling but it never explored gender identity at that time - was for depression and anxiety.

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Did your son then not get therapy around his gender dysphoria?

Myalternate · 18/04/2025 11:10

Diverze · 18/04/2025 11:01

No, thankfully! DC says that dysphoria and not identifying with being male began at around 15/16. In DC's school they had had the gender gingerbread stupidity taught and I guess DC found this helped explain the discomfort of DC's changing sexed body. DC was already identified as autistic.
The dysphoria was horrific btw. Hiding under duvets because they are too ugly to be seen, covering their face. Staying in the dark. DC did get counselling but it never explored gender identity at that time - was for depression and anxiety.

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Thank you for clarifying. 👍

Peony1897 · 18/04/2025 11:10

I find all of this wrangling over whether women are allowed to, for once, put themselves first to be really sad. I don’t even feel we need to justify it - I will no longer be engaging in long and complicated explanations as to why a man is a man is a man. It’ll just be ‘they’re a man’, end of. Men wouldn’t afford us such long dialogues, they would instruct us and that would be that.

Diverze · 18/04/2025 11:13

Helleofabore · 18/04/2025 11:10

Did your son then not get therapy around his gender dysphoria?

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Is on waiting list atm

TheaBrandt1 · 18/04/2025 11:19

Agree absolutely peony. So much effort money and time expended on this small sub group wanting to upend the whole of fucking society to suit their agenda. No way on earth would men expend such efforts on us.

Springee · 18/04/2025 11:20

GCAcademic · 18/04/2025 01:23

All genders are invented. Gender is a social construct.

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Gone off topic - this is about a pupil who mocked gender by saying they chose to be 2 random words and whether the teacher did anything to correct them.

GCAcademic · 18/04/2025 11:22

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spannasaurus · 18/04/2025 11:22

Springee · 18/04/2025 11:20

Gone off topic - this is about a pupil who mocked gender by saying they chose to be 2 random words and whether the teacher did anything to correct them.

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Have you seen the neo pronouns that trans people use - often two random words stuck together.

I've seen demon, fairy, clown and flea pronouns being used.

HMPworker · 18/04/2025 11:26

@Springee - hope this helps in learning about trans (mtf) sex offenders who do assault in public toilets.

Whilst these may be few and far between, please don't ignore the very real threat sex offenders pose to the rest of the trans community and this is the negative impact being had on those who genuinely do want to live their lives peacefully.

Conkerjar · 18/04/2025 11:43

Haven't read any posts so if I'm jumping in at a weird time, apologies. I don't like that there are so many people feeling hurt and scared. I don't think this is a reason to pretend their beliefs are true, but just as I can have empathy for JWs who are terrified that the end of the world is imminent, and wish they could escape, I can feel the same for anyone who's really upset right now. You can do both. I think that's pretty normal actually. There are some people who have been actually harmed by trans ideology, though, lost jobs, been treated like utter filth for stating the emperor has no clothes and that men are more dangerous than women no matter how we dress it up. There are people whose kids have been dragged into permanent physical changes and left psychologically harmed. I wouldn't begrudge them their feelings now, at all. I find the latter more difficult really. Actually I have a real mix going on depending where I look. If I stand in the middle and face different pieces of the fucked up pie, the impact of genderwang (need a better name I think), has been awful and there are several places where the impact cannot be reversed. That's what needs to be contended with now. The fallout of the mass hysteria. It's not over yet either.