Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

Agree, it's a ridiculously weak argument.

In agreeing to give trans women access to the women's toilet,@OneAlertNavyAnt is effectively giving 'all the men' access to the women's toilet – the very thing she says she doesn't want – given that any man could claim to be a trans woman.

He wouldn't need to have a Gender Recognition Certificate (and it would be illegal to ask if he had one). He wouldn't even need to present, conventionally, as a woman. He could just say he was a woman. Prior to this ruling, it would have been very difficult to challenge and exclude such a man from the women's toilet, or any other space intended for the use of biological women only.

History has already made it abundantly clear that predators will use any loophole or opportunity available to them to gain access to the people they want to prey upon. Why make it easier for them.

Because they're men.

Why do we keep any men out of women's toilets and changing rooms?

IMO it's mostly safety and comfort. Men are more dangerous than women and are generally larger, faster, and stronger, with longer limbs, stronger grip, etc. Men are more likely to commit violent crimes including rape, sexual assault, murder, etc. They are also more likely to commit sexual offenses than women.

Those things are still true after men transition. Offending rates are similar before and after transition. They are still stronger, faster, larger, etc. Why should we treat them differently just bc they feel like they are women?

Comfort can be for many reasons. Many ppl have cultural or religious beliefs that say that women should not be in private spaces with men they don't know. Even without those beliefs, many women are uncomfortable being in a vulnerable position with men they don't know well. (See safety, above.) Most women don't want to worry about voyeurs, hidden cameras placed by men, exhibitionists, etc.

Many women have experienced male violence and are therefore afraid to be around men, esp when they're in a vulnerable position, like a toilet or shower. Some, like me, have some kind of PTSD and get triggered by men, esp in areas like loos or changing rooms. Triggering means that I relive my abuse for hours or days. Why should I have to risk that just to use the toilet? Even if I want to view trans women as women, my brain will react as if they're men.

For me, the bottom like is "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them." That's not hyperbole, and many men don't seem to understand that at all. Why should women have to deal with that if they want to use a public toilet?

"As the judgment says, this was not a determination that allowed people to be nasty, or that allows them to be automatically excluded from society. It allows women the right to women only spaces."

It's one thing to show empathy to the nice, friendly 'trans woman' you know and like who wouldn't hurt a fly and just wants to get on with his life while wearing a dress, but what do we do about the violent, deranged nappy fetishists and their ilk? The ones who masturbate in public toilets? We know they're out there now, and there are quite a lot of them. I didn't used to know this but I've been forced to find out. Do we want them included in society?

How patronising. Who has advocated being unpleasant to TW or denying their existence?

I have had TW teachers, colleagues etc and like and respect them a lot, but that doesn’t mean because the TW I know are lovely that I would give away my sex based rights such as the right to not be in a changing room with men who identify as women.

I think you misread the quote. And I won't engage in the nastiness you have quoted me next to and I will not be drawn into it.

My point is made by the fact that the law changes nothing (or diminishes rights for anyone) apart from absolutely and thankfully we have clarity on FACT of biological sex of a woman. For which I am absolutely thankful to all those who have fought hard. And yes I also can't believe we had to get this into law but thank you.

No answer to her question, then?

I don't think the majority of GC people hate trans people. I'm trans, and I dreaded coming out to two family members who were very GC.
It took a lot of talking and listening, and a willingness to listen to each other.

Unfortunately there is a "thing" with online trans communities where if friends and family -even strangers- don't agree with the trans person immediately, then they're horrible transphobic people and should be shunned.

Not all trans people are like that, but unfortunately the loudest ones are - which has caused the GC community to go through quite a lot - estranged children, divorces, feeling unsafe in women's spaces, feeling unable to voice their own views at work...it's little wonder they're just done at this point.

The one thing I have noticed is that when I've posted here before about being trans, I haven't come across one single transphobic comment. Some have asked questions, and others have been really nice towards me.
However, when I've posted on trans groups to say I'm a feminist I've been called awful slurs, accused of being transphobic and removed from the groups.

I don't think much will change anytime soon. But you can 100% support feminism and trans people. Nobody has to pick a side. I hate that there are even sides to begin with.

For me, things stay pleasant as long as neither side digs into specifics. I want trans ppl to be happy and safe, have fulfilling lives, and generally have good things happen. I think most trans ppl want the same for women. As long as neither side digs into what those things mean for the other person, we can get along quite well.

But if we start discussing specifics, we will probably disagree on a fundamental level. Most trans women want to be seen as women. I see them as trans women, i.e. men who identify as women. They shouldn't be constrained by gender stereotypes and should be free to act as feminine or masculine (however they define those labels) as they want. Most want to use women's loos and other single sex spaces. I don't want them in single sex spaces, even if I think they're lovely ppl.

We can chat, have tea, or go to lunch but, unless I've known them for a long time, we need to avoid trans or feminist topics. I wish we could talk but I think the topic is too existential for both sides for that to happen in the current climate.

Exactly- why instead of women accommodating trans women cannot men change their attitudes, male changing facilities be policed and open categories of facility or classes of competition created? This is a whole society issue but women have been made to look like the crazy bad ladies!

I'll leave Gen Z "on read" on this one. They can crack on, and I'll call them if I need anything ( the list of technology that I need help with groww longer by the day )

Do they want women to be happy and safe? Thats only true if they think male people shouldn’t be allowed to play in women’s leagues, women who are the victims of assault deserve a women only space for support, women in women’s changing rooms should be able to not have male people there and should not see penises. If they think all that, then i agree they want women to be happy and safe. The thing is, many trans people are also victims of the outspoken trans brigade who thinks women’s rights were a mistake and don’t really exist. Please don’t forget the fight back is against letting children make irreversible medical decisions too, it’s for better support for trans children, evidence based healthcare, not the online cesspits they find.

What's there to be confused about? What specifically are you confused about? There is nothing to be confused about. No one wants transphobia or anyone's rights to be not upheld. But we also know what a woman is. The two issues are not the same thing, you do know that, right?

This is excellent, thank you @hihelenhi

If trans women are having negative experiences when accessing male single sex areas and/or services then this needs to be addressed by men. Men need to be more accommodating towards who are accessing their areas/services, men need to be educated on what is acceptable conduct in those areas and men need to have their behaviours challenged.

I wholeheartedly support that trans women have the right to use single sex facilities, in line with their biological sex, without facing discrimination, intimidation or aggression. If this is not the case then it should be addressed. The answer is not women relinquishing their own rights to single sex services/facilities.

This is what Stonewall etc should have been campaigning for all along. The right of trans-identifying males to be safe & respected in the spaces for their own sex, however they present.

I feel huge empathy and a great deal of concern for the trans people i know. They are teenage girls + some my DCs know. They are all troubled for various reasons, have autism and are seeking answers/scape from their unhappiness. Being trans and trying get the world to see them as men whilst battling their own biology is not making them happier. It’s all desperately sad, so yes I do feel empathy.

I’ve less experience with male trans people. One started trying to talk to my dd when she was in an ikea loo (I was waiting outside) and she was frightened. This was years ago before the current trans stuff. She didn’t realise he was anything other than a ‘weird man’ (her words). So, no empathy for him and it was a long time before dd went to a public loo on her own again. Other than that I’ve encountered many males who are trans / drag queens on television or in sports and they all seem to be doing well. It certainly feels like they are over represented compared to their proportion of the population. I’ve also encountered lots of wording that seeks to include males who say they are trans in women’s and girls spaces. Eg a recent ad for the ‘stemettes’ (ridiculous name but that’s a side issue) which aims to encourage girls into science, except it also includes ‘non binary people’ -so not actually just for girls after all. My dd went to a girls school through choice and in the last few years they stopped giving any positive messages about what women and girls can do in case it offended they tiny number of girls who thought they were boys. The word girl became almost like a taboo and all pride in womanhood disappeared. It was such a shame. All communication used ‘they’ instead of ‘she’ and high made it feel very impersonal. I’ve strayed from the point but the empathy given too, and the changes made for, the couple of girls who thought they were trans was huge, and some of it came at significant cost to everyone else. And for no gain - the girls would have been better served by being helped to accept their bodies, in fact many do seem to do this in the end.

Not really. The wide eyed, ‘golly gosh’ schtick, is unconvincing, to say the least.

Well that means they didn't happen.

My gen zers are not cringing. I’ve said before on here my then 15 year old had a PHSE session on this. Dd2 said to the class that people should do as they wish but women need to keep their single sex spaces. Every other girl agreed. Female middle aged teacher got weepy and said how proud she was of them.

Throughout history there have been people who are same-sex attracted. Societies' reaction to that has varied from acceptance to condemnation. Legend, literature, and legal documents are full of references.

Having a 'gender', as distinct from either a same-sex attraction or a wish/economic need to do things the society conventionally regards as the reserve of the opposite sex, not so much. Gender belief arises from an acceptance of rigid and constrictive sex-role stereotypes and a drive to impose them, with side orders of misogyny and homophobia.

Sex is binary and real, gender is a recent culturally-specific construct that you can believe or not as you choose. Personally, I choose not to.

‘An evil day when hatred against a tiny minority of horrendously marginalised people triumphs. I’m so angry and sad, and aware my skin in the game is minimal and I can’t imagine how it feels to be a trans person today. I’m so deeply sorry to my trans friends and loved ones and students, and for the record, trans women are women and trans men are men and non binary people and other beautiful genders are valid. And in all this, what about all the incredible intersex people? And, I’m pretty sure the Bible clearly says God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are genderqueer, and where did Jesus’ chromosomes come from, and aren’t we all going to be a different sex and gender in heaven? I don’t have the words I want tonight, but my heart is so heavy and all my love is with the trans community, especially those I’m deeply blessed to know’

Is your friend that posted this ok? I have rarely read anything so hyperbolic and devoid of facts! It’s nothing short of hysteria.

What the OP will get here are facts, something I’m guessing you’re not fond of if they don’t fit your narrative.

@miniaturepixieonacid The sheer silliness of And, I’m pretty sure the Bible clearly says God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are genderqueer, and where did Jesus’ chromosomes come from, and aren’t we all going to be a different sex and gender in heaven?

I appreciate you don't want to fight with a friend, but asking her where exactly she thinks the Bible mentions 'gender' never mind the concept of 'queer' would be interesting. Also why she feels she has to drag in a (spurious) religious reference - is it because she has to steer clear of science - including those scary chromosomes?

What are female people who identify as "non binary" identifying AS, and what is it they imagine about the rest of us women who don't do this?

What does the word "woman" then mean if "non-binary" is actually a valid concept? And what is feminist about framing it like that exactly?

For example, if you claim, as many adherents to gender identity ideology do, that strong historical figures such as Elizabeth I, Joan of Arc etc were something called "non-binary" instead of women, what are you implying about what "woman" means? And how & where does feminism fit into that?

Someone who is non-binary is someone who has a philosophical belief that they are non-binary. They have a belief about how they perceive themselves. No one else has to treat that person as if they are materially that identity.

There are over 130 genders. Society should not be under any obligation to act as if those people with those philosophical beliefs about themselves are materially those identities.

The fact that there lacks a coherent definition to what these genders even mean also make them meaningless as categories. The ‘balance’ is acknowledging some people have these beliefs while not treating those beliefs in identities as being based on material reality.