Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

Of course it's possible.

The two most ardent feminists that I know have done the following today:

One has been working tirelessly towards this supreme court ruling for months and has been pictured on the BBC news site today pouring champagne and celebrating the result. She is over the moon.

The other has posted this:
An evil day when hatred against a tiny minority of horrendously marginalised people triumphs. I’m so angry and sad, and aware my skin in the game is minimal and I can’t imagine how it feels to be a trans person today. I’m so deeply sorry to my trans friends and loved ones and students, and for the record, trans women are women and trans men are men and non binary people and other beautiful genders are valid. And in all this, what about all the incredible intersex people? And, I’m pretty sure the Bible clearly says God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are genderqueer, and where did Jesus’ chromosomes come from, and aren’t we all going to be a different sex and gender in heaven? I don’t have the words I want tonight, but my heart is so heavy and all my love is with the trans community, especially those I’m deeply blessed to know.

They are both passionate, very politically active feminists. They just have polar opposite opinions.

Who'd like to bet there'll be another post saying that the stats aren't findable on the thread?

Now that you have the information, the actual important statistic to work out is do the male people in that sub group present the SAME risk or less risk than female people.

Because it is not a valid argument if they are merely less risk than the general male population (which they are not). The comparator you require is compared to female people.

There is no evidence to support your position at all and there is no logic either.

For me, the equivalent would be having a friend who had severe OCD, or was anorexic, or believed they were hearing voices, or had body dysmorphia, ie I would see them as having some degree of mental illness (no stigma- I have been mentally ill myself frequently through life). In other words, I could feel great empathy for them and hope that they can access the support they need, but of course I do not share their beliefs because they are not based on logic or truth, they are the product of an unwell mind.

Here you go @Thegreatestdancer , I will now link below all the posts you need to understand what Namechanged has pointed out. That male people do not lose their strength or size when they modify their bodies to suit their philosophical belief.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=1

Feel free to ask any questions.

So to answer your point- yes, having a NB identity is very important to the person with that identity (in as much as OCD, anorexia etc are important to their sufferers) and they are important to the loved ones of that person. When my DD had an eating disorder, it was very important to me- it occupied many of my thoughts for months- but what was important was getting her the right help, not celebrating and enabling her mental illness.

Glimmer has just posted a partial list of trans sex offenders you might want to check out too. https://x.com/Glinner/status/1912646859719602497

Now, about those lesbians.

I am sure you are now probably aware that it is irrelevant about female people seeing other female people in the changing room. Because female people use those spaces knowing that they have to expect to share those spaces with other female people. It would be homophobic to exclude lesbians based on their same sex attracted status. That is illegitimate discrimination.

The right to privacy extends to people having privacy from the opposite sex. That is legitimate discrimination. No person has the right to expect privacy from people of the same sex. If they are uncomfortable using a single sex space with a communal area, they will find a place with total privacy.

So, your homophobic point fails in reality.

Can I just say @HoundOfTheBasketballs that I really appreciate your reasoned and thoughtful responses on your post, because that quite often doesn't happen on potentially contentious posts on MN.

I have to say I feel desperately sad for those trans women who just want to carry on their lives and be accepted as they are, who are not part of the radical trans people who want the same rights as if their biological sex was the same as the biological sex they wish to be, but what do those who want to quietly live their lives want?

Which public (or work related) spaces do they currently frequent? Which spaces do they wish they could be accepted in? How do they want this to work out?

I would never think of abusing anyone who was trans being in a female only space unless I felt it obvious they were violating my female only space, but I think it's doing any trans woman a disservice to accept they're female (on biological sex) when they are not.

I don't know what the answer is, but I'm glad we, as biological females have had our "status" redeemed (so to speak). We've worked so hard to be recognised in society, re voting etc and I really don't want any trans ideology to dilute those gains.

Sorry I probably haven't given you an actual response, but these are my thoughts.

Oh and 'The vast vast majority of trans women are decent people just getting on with their lives'.

Decent male people are not those who cannot respect the needs of female people when they need single sex spaces. Decent male people do not use a space that they realise them accessing may cause distress to those using that space

If they are decent and just getting on with their lives, they are not using any female single sex provision.

Women don't have to be nice all the time, it's something we need to teach girls.
it's not our job to make transwomen feel comfortable, to let them into women's only spaces, or to collude with their regressive sexist view of gender norms.

Not being nice and kind can be very liberating. I'll call a man Susan is he asks, but I won't say he's a woman, or agree that any man who says he's a woman should be in a woman's prison. Even though Susan is so nice, and not like that at all.

Forgot to answer OPs question, can a feminist be pro-trans rights?

In my opinion, no. Trans activists push a reductive view of gender roles, which feminists have been fighting against for decades, and they have allowed predatory men to enter women's only spaces.

Now @Thegreatestdancer has been presented with numerous statistics I trust they will be back to comment. Or have they done a runner?

I don't think non-binary means nothing at all to people who identify as non-binary.

OP, I hear you but you won't get a balanced view on here.

Today's judgement has nothing to do with belief.
As in religion, people can believe what they want. They just can't force others to believe it.

I’m sure it does mean something to them but that doesn’t mean it should hold any meaning for the rest of us or that there should be legislation centred around what is, at the end of the day, a made up concept.

Don’t most of us have some stereotypically masculine traits and some stereotypically female ones? It doesn’t make us something other than male or female.

Something that has puzzled me might be answered by those asking us to show empathy with the kind and gentle trans identifying people and that is…

Why the heck haven’t they told their allies to back off with the threats of violence, preventing us from meeting without their participation, disrupting women gathering to discuss the erosion of our rights, when all we just wanted is to live our lives as peacefully as possible?
^^

Yes I think you can support womens rights i.e. safety (by recognising the differences in strength, endurance, power and aggression), bodily autonomy, equal pay for work of equal value, health care equal to the quality of men and equal opportunity in all areas i.e. sports

You can also support the rights of trans-gendered people i.e. access to good quality health care and research, safety (by recognising the increased risk of violence and mental distress that comes have dysphoria and transitioning), the right not to be descriminated based on your choices i.e. being able to wear appropriate clothes for the gender you identify with and to be treated with the same dignity and respect that you would expect if you were non-trans.

Where it becomes combative is when one groups rights appear to supercede others. This is why todays ruling affects TG women and not TG men. The fact is that most aggression and violence towards women 1) comes from men 2) is exacerbated by the size and power difference between men and women 3) primarily is of a sexual nature 4) happens mainly when a women is alone with men.

This means in situations where 1) a woman may expose her sexual organs or 2) a woman may come into physical contact with a man, or 3) a woman participation in an activity might be judged based on physical power 4) a woman may find themselve alone in private with man which she hasn't got control over require same sex provisions so women can risk assess on how to proceed.

Saying that a TGwoman can access single sex spaces puts the needs of the TG woman (which aren't a human right) over the safety of the woman (which is a human right). Keeping spaces that are there to protect womens safety, single sex doesn't stop any of the TG rights from being fulfilled. We just need to reorientate society slightly to make some space for people who experience being TG and a lot of places are already doing this.

I strongly suspect that the TG people who are just living their lives nothing will change. Maybe they will update identity documents to have TGman/woman rather than M/F but they will already know where they can go and where they need to be careful.

And if you haven't heard about them they can't be real?

Empathy is understandable but, like kindness, it can be used as a tool against us women. And it's difficult to feel empathy when women have been assaulted, sent death threats, lost their jobs, family members, friends & hobbies, been shunned, threatened, silenced and harassed, and I don't recall a single transgender person speaking up for our defence. I hope all transgender people go and live happy lives but empathy? Sadly not from me.

This is a good example of the reality of the risk assessment that women have to do when they are alone with a man.

Yeah there have been a few... but they were kicked out of the LGBT community.

Alexis Blake is a good example of what someone with dysphoria living in the real world. Her content is very accessible, and even though I disagree with her on access to public toilets, and some of the things she says about becoming a woman can come accross as sexist i.e. she calls her breast the "girls" she seems like she is a pretty normal person, and she isn't political at all and I would be more than happy to help her out.

Lily Tino on the other hand....

Many more women would have been supportive of trans women had they not tried to systematically eradicate our spaces and rights
Stonewall should have fought for spaces for the trans community not fought to take spaces and rights from women.

It is not for women to fight for the trans community. You seem a little obsessed with this issue. Why not also mention men and Stonewall fighting for it as well.

Women and trans women are not the same. They never have been and never will be. We stand apart and if there was a little more consideration towards a sex some men would like to be like then perhaps women and men would feel like campaigning for third and fourth spaces for the trans community.

Instead we see hateful aggression towards those they call Terfs. We see the placards and hear the vile language thrown at us at demonstrations and you wonder OP why everyone you know is different. You should have joined us at a demonstrations or read the papers a bit more because you sound like you’ve had your head in the sand for a long time.

Have a Google OP, there’s plenty to see if you really are interested

Exactly this. Trans people have not lost any rights at all today. They are as equally protected by the Equality Act 2010 as they ever were. Women are women by the sex you are biologically born with. It doesn't matter if you choose to "present as a woman" or transition to becoming a transwoman. You are not a woman, therefore you are should not be able to apply the law as a woman. The Equality Act recognises trans x why would a minority look to reduce the hard won rights of another minority?

This. Worth a requote.