Women's rights general conversations - Thread 10

[Kucinghitam]

Continuation of Thread 9.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions in the supermarket, grr"- that sort of thing).

I've changed my mind about the trolley problem. I used to be in favour of switching the points so.the trolley only kills one person. However I now think that that's an active decision to murder someone and I couldn't do that.

Allowing the trolley to continue on its path, even if that means more people dying is not my action, but the responsibility of the whole situation - bad manufacturing, brake failure, lack of safety regulations so people are on the tracks etc.

Just a small thing. I went into a beauty store. The greeter on the door was obviously male even with make up on and a big "she/her" pronouns badge, due to their build and the deepness of their voice. They asked if I needed help and I said no thanks.

Another lady followed me in and she too was offered help but declined and started browsing too.

A female staff member came over and said "do either of you ladies need any help?" and the other woman said "oh no thanks, that man over there already asked."

I could see he was absolutely seething but he couldn't say anything!

It just amused me!

I think it's kind of understandable at population level. Groups need cohesion more than they need the awkward squad.

The idea that we can all be heroic and fight the power is great but maybe it's just not how we're made.

Which is where the founders of the constitution were wise to realise that We The People will eventually need to go Full Awkward Squad, even as The Power uses the tendency to obedience against them/us

I've been spending a bit of time reading trans threads on Reddit - I do genuinely try to understand the RSOH viewpoint (but always end up at "just.... NOPE"). There's a poster on there who is clearly a lawyer, who gets criticised a lot for being negative, when he's clearly just stating points of law. After a pile-on in which he was accused of being a plant from TWSOH, he explained why he always presents the gloomiest case, and I think this is absolutely fascinating. Emphasis is mine:

FWS.
That case burned me.
I had followed it up through the Scottish Courts, and I was certain it was an easy win.
To the point that I had the day of its promulgation booked off. I was watching it live with a miniature of Champagne, which was unusual as I typically only drink at weddings, new year etc, and was intending to savour reading the judgement over the afternoon.
Well we all know how that case went down. I still have the miniature.
What was worse was going through the judgement.
While I did identify the same serious error of law re art 8, I was absolutely horrified by how much of the judgement is objectively correct. Particularly the outcome of applying the standard processes of statutory interpretation to the problem.
That should not have been a shock.
That is something we should have been aware of and lobbying against, but we weren't. The whole of our activist base was caught up in pushing our mantra as faet accompli and a legal fact.
I was part of that. I was so caught up in it that I wasn't even that bothered when the Scottish gender reforms failed because I genuinely believed we had something very close to de facto self id already.
And I wasn't alone. I don't think any of our allied lawyers thought FWS had an arguable case.
Then going back and reading articles and threads from when it was going through the lower courts I started to see a sort of toxic positivity- arguments re statutory interpretation which in retrospect were legally completely wrong being accepted as fact because they were what we wanted to hear.
Then once I noticed that, the next thing was how much of the response to the judgement was similarly not based in reality.
I never ever want another shock like FWS again and I would much rather a negative but realistic picture of our position than a positive fantasy.
Exaggerated good news, like pretending GANHRI will have any impact on ukgov's ability to get trade agreements or its political calculations is fantasy.

As a descendent of a long line of awkward sods, I've always been equal parts horrified and fascinated by the whole 'going with the crowd' thing. I agree with Bez that there are often population level advantages - we're herd animals, after all, so it's not surprising that coordinated behaviour is the default. But I fundamentally don't get it.

Thanks for that Reddit extract, Squeaky. With the planned celebration I do wonder if he'd truly understood the limit of the FWS case and that they'd already lost the self ID part. And it's amazing he can see - and admit - that the SC is correct, but still doesn't seem to have made the step to 'and therefore perhaps we're wrong'.

Be alert. Britain needs lerts.
No. Be aloof and stand out from the crowd.
No. Be alert. There is safety in numbers.

I'll get my coat.

yep @NoBinturongsHereMate you're definitely Full Awkward Squad and I am here for it! I guess I have a foot in both camps. People that know, know that I'm an awkward sod sometimes and not really bothered (good old autistic social dilligaf power) if I'm out of step with others. But on the other hand, I really loved scouts, I loved the comfort of knowing where I was in the hierarchy. I don't mind if I'm the boss or not, really, but I liked there to be a boss and to know who it is.

I think as I get older I don't tend to need structure as much, but I like there to be structure, even if I give myself a free pass to ignore it. Our house is super fun, three of us all a bit like this in different degrees. The LARKS we have.

I saw this link to a US survey which asked people their gender and got quite a range of answers:
https://open.substack.com/pub/jeanmtwenge/p/a-survey-let-people-explain-what?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web

Oh, that's very good.

Starting in 2021, the CES instead asked “What is your gender?” with four options: “Man,” “Woman,” “Non-binary,” and “Other.” When respondents chose “Other,” they could then type in the term of their choosing.

Several people, though, took the opportunity to protest the question, often loudly. “Humans don’t have gender, they have sex,” wrote one. “There should only be two answers to this question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” wrote another, with too many exclamation points to easily count. There were several variations on this theme: “Man, the only other real choice is woman. The rest is insanity,” “My gender is not ‘woman.’ My sex is female,” “Gender is bullshit, sex is real,” “I have no gender. I am an adult human female,”

I do wonder what future generations will think of it all. Will they get the full details that 0.02% of people identified as 'potato', or will they just see that a certain number reported themselves as 'other'.

Another vv interesting Reddit thread here: https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/1qncy55/do_we_ever_tell_anyone_they_are_not_transgender/

A lot of the commentators seem to be medics. I found the group 1 vs group 2 discussion early in the thread interesting -

"YES. I have had this discussion with a number of trans people. Being a trans paramedic myself, I've seen it in friends and patients too.
Group 1: is the generally more binary, focusing on passing/fitting in, and exhibit significant distress with delays or difficulties in transitioning
Group 2: more of the radical acceptance, more likely to be wishy-washy on transitioning or exhibit less distress with not transitioning.
This bimodal distribution should inform the care plan, imo. This stuff would be a giant can of worms in any trans discourse space, but it's a real thing."

I don't know if there is a thread in this, but it struck me, seeing posts on SM about new builds in schools, and the toilet arrangements; where are RIBA on this? Architects design the buildings we all use, surely their members should be working in accordance with the law? Are they captured?

My DH is an architect. There are a lot of building codes they have to follow, and they have to follow whatever the laws are in the place where they are licensed and also what the client wants them to do. There’s not much wiggle room for personal opinions.

I've worked with architects in the past (building and civil engineering field), and that's what I would have thought too. But then I read about all these schools which have non-legal toilets and changing-rooms, and wonder how that comes about. Someone has drawn up the plans, someone has signed off on them.

Architects can't do anything about the ones that started as perfectly legal single-sex loos, which the schools have then changed the signs on.

It's absolutely not correct etiquette. However old-fashioned one is, correct etiquette for a no-longer-married (i.e. widowed or divorced) woman addresses her as Mrs Herfirstname Hissurname..

(gleaned from obsessional reading in my youth of a book about etiquette given to my parents as a joke wedding present)

Unless you have a particular reason for wanting to stay in touch, @YorkshirePuddingsGreatestFan, I would be returning to sender marked Not At This Address. Your name is YOUR name. Your relative doesn't get to pick it for you.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5485712-what-should-i-say-to-my-19-year-old-daughter-who-has-already-decided-that-she-hates-men

Shaping up to be an interesting discussion.

I think I'll skip that one!

Or don a hard hat

Or a suit of armour.

Heh! I've found in the past with similar threads, reading them is just depressing, so I'd prefer to read something else.

Yes, I'd agree with that, they tend to become polarised immediately. I read the first few pages, then bowed out.

Had a nice parcel arrive today with this rather lovely badge and more postcards and stuff. There's a long way to go, though.

Have we had this? If this link works.

https://archive.ph/rscoI

Court archive revealing extent of grooming gangs scandal to be deleted. Sounds appalling on the face of it, especially in light of an enquiry going on.

I note that the multi-talented(?) Jordan Grey has a gig in Manchester on the 20th Feb. I was informed of this by a seat filling website who is doing the tickets at booking fee only, rather than the retail £24.