Page 4 | Men urged to ‘stop using prostitutes’ as MPs debate modern slavery

IwantToRetire · 2025-03-27T19:44:25+00:00

^Sarah Russell said a “significant” number of women are brought to the UK under false pretences before being forced to work in the sex industry.^ ^“If I could say one thing, I really, really wish that men – and it is predominantly men – would stop using prostitutes, could you just stop?^ ^“Because the number of women who are being brought to the UK under false pretences, believing that they’re going to do a different form of work and are then put to sex work against their will … kept in physically confined situations, which they’re not allowed to leave, and having had their passports taken away from them is really, really significant.^ ^“The other thing that happens is that some women, who come here knowing that that might be an element of their work, if they then complain about it or want to stop, are told that their children back home will be harmed if they do, so are unable to go to the police when they are being systematically raped.^ ^“So please, please, men, stop using prostitutes.”^ [[https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jess-phillips-russell-home-office-mps-men-b1219328.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jess-phillips-russell-home-office-mps-men-b1219328.html]] Also this: ^Jess Phillips said the Overseas Domestic Work visa, which allows workers to come to the UK with their employers for six months, was “servitude”.^ [[https://www.perspectivemedia.com/minister-keeping-keen-eye-on-visa-that-allows-wealthy-to-bring-staff-to-uk/ https://www.perspectivemedia.com/minister-keeping-keen-eye-on-visa-that-allows-wealthy-to-bring-staff-to-uk/]] There have been so many stories about how women trapped in this "servitude" are exploited, abused and isolated.

JazzyJelly · 28/03/2025 20:40

If we hanged a few of these men it might give the others pause. And yes, I'm sure men I know and care about would be amongst them.

XXylophonic · 28/03/2025 20:47

Grammarnut · 28/03/2025 20:24

Prostituted women are routinely raped and forced to acts that other women who have some free choice, would not agree to. Prostituted women are just like me and you (if you are female) but with worse life choices.

Show quote history

I didn't mean that the prostituted women are doing it willingly and happily. I was echoing some of the reasons men have given me. That they don't have to make any effort or even consider these women's feelings - and they get to do things that dates, girlfriends, wives would never agree to. All they have to do is pay. These men make my skin crawl. Maybe I just know shitty men. Or there are just lots of shit men in general.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 28/03/2025 21:06

happydappy2 · 28/03/2025 19:41

How about we reduce testosterone in all boys/men until they prove they can behave appropriately towards girls/women....I really think testosterone is a harmful hormone for a civilised society

It is not a new idea that men should be castrated upon reaching adulthood, after first making generous deposits at a State-funded sperm bank. This would resolve both the behavioural problems associated with high levels of testosterone and the problem of unplanned pregnancies.

TempestTost · 28/03/2025 21:49

IwantToRetire · 28/03/2025 18:15

I dont think it is about "sex drive" or any other type of analysis.

This is just about being the dominant power group.

If you think how much people are made to be embarrased or to feel inadequate for not having friends, it's because it implies they aren't interesting, attractive, worth knowing etc.. And what people would say about you if you paid to have "friends".

But somehow paying for what is the most intimate interaction with another human being, is thought to be okay, natural. Which sort of implies that to men sex isn't a personal or emotional experience.

I'm confused, Are you saying that if women were the dominant power group they'd behave as if sex wasn't an emotional or personal expression?

TempestTost · 28/03/2025 21:53

RethinkingLife · 28/03/2025 18:47

When German anti-prostitution advocates talk about the situation of prostitution in Germany, we hear the same responses, over and over: “You’ve got to be kidding!” or “How is this possible?” When we do presentations in other countries, people in the audience will often start to cry or ask for a break after 15 minutes to get some fresh air. The same presentations in Germany cause outrage as well, but we’ve noticed that people have become so accustomed to the situation, their emotional response is subdued. In fact, German men will often openly and proudly out themselves as sex buyers at abolitionist events. There is no shame in being a commercial sex buyer in Germany. This is an obvious and alarming sign that decades of legalized prostitution have shaped society.

https://fightthenewdrug.org/germanys-legalized-prostitution-industry-looks-like-a-real-life-horror-movie/

This is what normalised prostitution looks like and what it means for those enmeshed in it.

This seems to suggest that it isn't true that social messaging makes no difference.

Potn · 28/03/2025 22:56

I don't buy the arguements against making it illegal to purchase services from a prostitute.

As a frequent visitor this would certainly make me stop paying for sexual services. I presume a substantial proportion of other men would also stop overnight.

Can someone enlighten me as to why there is so much push back from making it illegal? Is it simply the logistics of it whereby it's hard to track certain digital currencies or payment by other methods and therefore reliably demonatrate services were paid for?

Christinapple · 29/03/2025 00:04

Grammarnut · 28/03/2025 16:24

Decriminalization makes being prostituted 'just a job' so women can be told by the local Job Centre to go and get said job at the local brothel.

In Nordic model France the number of prostitutes has decreased and the Nordic model - where punters and pimps are criminalised but not prostituted women - is what most women who have escaped prostitution want. The figures on murders that you refer to are uncertain, too. Meanwhile, in Germany, where prostitution is decriminalised the number of brothels has ballooned and they can be found anywhere, including next door to schools, and the number of women prostituted has also increased - the opposite of what we want. There is no evidence that violence against the women involved has decreased, either. The same can be said of decriminalization in New Zealand.
Decriminalization does not solve the problem of trafficked women, of women tricked into being prostituted, or offer a way out of prostitution for the women involved.
The sex and pornography industries want decriminalization since it allows them to pursue their disgusting trade as though it was legitimate business, and not utterly destructive of society in general and women - and attitudes to women and sex - in particular.
If you are in favour of harm reduction then decriminalization is not the route you should be following but the Nordic model which allows women a route out of prostitution and discourages men from buying sex.
There can be no harm reduction in a trade where women sell the holes in their bodies for unfettered use by men.

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Your first claim is false. It comes up so many times in sexwork debates it could be put on a bingo card.
"Claim: Women in Germany face the loss of unemployment benefits if they decline to accept work in brothels.
Status: False."
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hot-jobs/

In France there were 10 murders of sexworkers in 6 months. Here's a link:
https://pion-norge.no/aktuelt/more-than-10-sex-workers-have-been-killed-in-6-months/

"Meanwhile, in Germany, where prostitution is decriminalised "

Germany has legalisation, not decriminalisation.

"There can be no harm reduction in a trade where (not quoting your vulgar remarks about sexworkers)"

There is actually. Let sexworkers work together for safety, let them rent property, don't have condoms evidence of a crime, don't make selling sex a form of "self harm" which means they have to hide what they do from social services, don't criminalise the clients which means they become more controlling and demand the meeting takes place in more secluded locations. Don't discriminate against Asian women entering bars "because they might be prostitutes". Decriminalise sexwork to give them more rights and control. The Nordic Model only creates harm.

"As a frequent visitor this would certainly make me stop paying for sexual services. I presume a substantial proportion of other men would also stop overnight."

Nope. As mentioned it's almost impossible to enforce as sexworkers are unwilling to testify against their clients (in Sweden there were 2 convictions in the first 2,000 arrests and all that happened was a small fine. In ROI in 2022 there was one conviction for paying sex, sentence was to pay a fine an amount of his own choice). So unless the police install cameras in everyone's home or look through the windows there's not much they can do if both sexworker and client don't admit to anything and make sure not to mention sex or payment in text messages etc. The police rely on confessions or obvious self-incriminating text or internet messages.

Also an unfun fact- as the penalty for paying for sex is generally a small fine, do you really think the clients who are capable of violent crimes like robbery/assault/threats/murder etc are going to be deterred by a law against paying for sex? No they aren't. If the pool of potential clients for sexworkers to take bookings from is made a little smaller then that only means sexworkers will end up at greater risk as the pool has a greater density of violent clients. If a sexworker receives less business then she may end up lowering her rates to attract more bookings.

In Ireland for example, a man threatened a sexworker with a knife demanding his money back. The Nordic Model didn't deter him from booking her.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-30-attacked-sex-worker-and-threatened-to-cut-her-neck-while-demanding-refund-1736420.html

Man (30) attacked sex worker and threatened to cut her neck while demanding refund | BreakingNews.ie

Dylan McMahon (30), of Kilpatrick, Kildangan, Monasterevin, Co Kildare, who claimed he had lots of respect for women, pleaded guilty to assault causing harm to the woman "who did not think she would survive," and robbery

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-30-attacked-sex-worker-and-threatened-to-cut-her-neck-while-demanding-refund-1736420.html

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 29/03/2025 01:11

Potn · 28/03/2025 22:56

I don't buy the arguements against making it illegal to purchase services from a prostitute.

As a frequent visitor this would certainly make me stop paying for sexual services. I presume a substantial proportion of other men would also stop overnight.

Can someone enlighten me as to why there is so much push back from making it illegal? Is it simply the logistics of it whereby it's hard to track certain digital currencies or payment by other methods and therefore reliably demonatrate services were paid for?

Why don't you just stop anyway from paying to turn a woman's "no" into a reluctant "yes"? You're paying someone to let you put her at risk of pregnancy, how can you remotely conceive of that as OK?

Would you bend over and take it up the arse for cash? If not, why expect that from a woman? Whether it's legal or not, you know it's not right.

Original poster

IwantToRetire · 29/03/2025 03:08

I'm confused, Are you saying that if women were the dominant power group they'd behave as if sex wasn't an emotional or personal expression?

I am confused as to how you would think that is what I am saying.

OP posts:

Grammarnut · 29/03/2025 13:10

Christinapple · 29/03/2025 00:04

Your first claim is false. It comes up so many times in sexwork debates it could be put on a bingo card.
"Claim: Women in Germany face the loss of unemployment benefits if they decline to accept work in brothels.
Status: False."
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hot-jobs/

In France there were 10 murders of sexworkers in 6 months. Here's a link:
https://pion-norge.no/aktuelt/more-than-10-sex-workers-have-been-killed-in-6-months/

"Meanwhile, in Germany, where prostitution is decriminalised "

Germany has legalisation, not decriminalisation.

"There can be no harm reduction in a trade where (not quoting your vulgar remarks about sexworkers)"

There is actually. Let sexworkers work together for safety, let them rent property, don't have condoms evidence of a crime, don't make selling sex a form of "self harm" which means they have to hide what they do from social services, don't criminalise the clients which means they become more controlling and demand the meeting takes place in more secluded locations. Don't discriminate against Asian women entering bars "because they might be prostitutes". Decriminalise sexwork to give them more rights and control. The Nordic Model only creates harm.

"As a frequent visitor this would certainly make me stop paying for sexual services. I presume a substantial proportion of other men would also stop overnight."

Nope. As mentioned it's almost impossible to enforce as sexworkers are unwilling to testify against their clients (in Sweden there were 2 convictions in the first 2,000 arrests and all that happened was a small fine. In ROI in 2022 there was one conviction for paying sex, sentence was to pay a fine an amount of his own choice). So unless the police install cameras in everyone's home or look through the windows there's not much they can do if both sexworker and client don't admit to anything and make sure not to mention sex or payment in text messages etc. The police rely on confessions or obvious self-incriminating text or internet messages.

Also an unfun fact- as the penalty for paying for sex is generally a small fine, do you really think the clients who are capable of violent crimes like robbery/assault/threats/murder etc are going to be deterred by a law against paying for sex? No they aren't. If the pool of potential clients for sexworkers to take bookings from is made a little smaller then that only means sexworkers will end up at greater risk as the pool has a greater density of violent clients. If a sexworker receives less business then she may end up lowering her rates to attract more bookings.

In Ireland for example, a man threatened a sexworker with a knife demanding his money back. The Nordic Model didn't deter him from booking her.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-30-attacked-sex-worker-and-threatened-to-cut-her-neck-while-demanding-refund-1736420.html

Show quote history

"There can be no harm reduction in a trade where (not quoting your vulgar remarks about sexworkers)"
Prostituted women are forced to give access to their vaginas, anuses and mouths for payment. Pimps profit from this. Punters can work out their nastiest most vile fantasies on women who have been bought like slaves for their satisfaction.
There is
a) no safe way to do this,
b) the entire industry demeans all women since some (many) men think it is ok to buy sex or to use the women they have relationships with like prostitutes,
c) no-one is entitled to sex, it is not the same as buying a kettle, it is using women (in the majority) as things, like spittoons, and men need to learn that they do not have a right to sex (there is no evidence men have a greater sex drive than women and it's about time we stopped suggesting they have and it needs containing - the Victorians justified prostitution by saying it protected respectable women from rape, which was and is a lie) and that women are not objects solely existing for their enjoyment.
We are people, the majority of people, and we object strongly to some of us being degraded by prostitution, which not only harms those women but harms all women and society also.
The number of prostitutes murdered in France under the Nordic model is a pointless statistic - being prostituted involves being the victim of violence and murder, however it is policed. The Nordic model does offer women a way out and also de-normalises the use of prostitutes, which is its point.
NB I do not accept that sex work is work, nor the naming of prostituted women as sex workers, as if it were a normal job.

Laundereddelrey · 29/03/2025 13:53

The attitude to prostitution today is similar to the attitude in a by gone era to slavery. Neither have ever been or will ever be morally defensible but they have always been apologists for both.

Christinapple · 29/03/2025 14:39

Grammarnut · 29/03/2025 13:10

"There can be no harm reduction in a trade where (not quoting your vulgar remarks about sexworkers)"
Prostituted women are forced to give access to their vaginas, anuses and mouths for payment. Pimps profit from this. Punters can work out their nastiest most vile fantasies on women who have been bought like slaves for their satisfaction.
There is
a) no safe way to do this,
b) the entire industry demeans all women since some (many) men think it is ok to buy sex or to use the women they have relationships with like prostitutes,
c) no-one is entitled to sex, it is not the same as buying a kettle, it is using women (in the majority) as things, like spittoons, and men need to learn that they do not have a right to sex (there is no evidence men have a greater sex drive than women and it's about time we stopped suggesting they have and it needs containing - the Victorians justified prostitution by saying it protected respectable women from rape, which was and is a lie) and that women are not objects solely existing for their enjoyment.
We are people, the majority of people, and we object strongly to some of us being degraded by prostitution, which not only harms those women but harms all women and society also.
The number of prostitutes murdered in France under the Nordic model is a pointless statistic - being prostituted involves being the victim of violence and murder, however it is policed. The Nordic model does offer women a way out and also de-normalises the use of prostitutes, which is its point.
NB I do not accept that sex work is work, nor the naming of prostituted women as sex workers, as if it were a normal job.

Edited

Show quote history

You refuse to call women (and men) who sell sex, sex workers. But you think calling or referring to them as spittoons or by their bodyparts is ok. I've also seen Nordic Model supporters compare booking a sexworker to ordering a pizza which sounds vulgar and dehumanising.

Notice how you and some others are completely ignoring the fact sexworkers in France aren't allowed to work together for safety (working together is illegal in all Nordic Model countries) and clients may demand the meeting takes place in more isolated locations to avoid being caught. This has led to murders. A sexworker, Petite Jasmine, was also murdered in Sweden by her ex bf after the police weren't interested in helping her, instead Social Services removed her children because she sold sex (they see it as "self harm").

Someone above mentioned pregnancy. In the Nordic Model condoms are used as evidence which means sexworkers and clients aren't going to carry or store them as another step to avoid being caught. Under legalisation or decriminalisation people can carry condoms without any issue. The NM just means the sex trade will operate "underground" with everyone involved taking steps to avoid being caught, steps which could comprise the safety of sexworkers in various ways.

There is a long list of human rights, health, HIV/AIDS, anti-trafficking and sexworker orgs who oppose the Nordic Model and advocate decriminalisation which NZ, Belgium and parts of Australia have. There are reasons for this, they didn't toss a coin to decide their position.

Potn · 29/03/2025 16:23

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 29/03/2025 01:11

Why don't you just stop anyway from paying to turn a woman's "no" into a reluctant "yes"? You're paying someone to let you put her at risk of pregnancy, how can you remotely conceive of that as OK?

Would you bend over and take it up the arse for cash? If not, why expect that from a woman? Whether it's legal or not, you know it's not right.

Show quote history

I'm not conflating legality with morality although I appreciate most people do. I'm just saying there needs to be a greater disincentive if we want to reduce prostitution. I'm also not saying by making prostitution illegal it would suddenly mean it would cease to exist but I'm sure it would have a drastic decrease in the number of men paying for sexual services.

I don't know any prostitutes who don't have an implant or are on the pill as well as demand that a condom is used. The pregnancy argument is a non starter imo.

I think nearly all workers would be reluctant to work if you removed any financial reward so again I don't really buy that argument (unless your stance is all work is slavery).

Even if I was an attractive homosexual I don't think I'd be tempted into prostitution no. It is hard to say for certain though without being in that position. There are many professions I wouldn't choose to do despite being a customer of.

JazzyJelly · 29/03/2025 16:49

Not mine, but it makes the point that if 'sex work is work', why is it not held to the same standard as any other?

A john calls to make an appointment for a home visit but it’s after 4pm on a Friday and Monday is a union holiday. Frustrated he calls Tuesday and is told the soonest a technician can come out is next Wednesday between 9am and 2pm. When the next Wednesday finally comes, the technician shows up at 3:30pm in full Hazmat gear. His name is Mike and he’s 46 and married with two kids. By law, all he can safely provide is a dry hand job. He’s on a Bluetooth call arguing with his brother in law about a truck the entire time. It hurts a lot and costs $1100.

XXylophonic · 29/03/2025 18:58

Potn · 28/03/2025 22:56

I don't buy the arguements against making it illegal to purchase services from a prostitute.

As a frequent visitor this would certainly make me stop paying for sexual services. I presume a substantial proportion of other men would also stop overnight.

Can someone enlighten me as to why there is so much push back from making it illegal? Is it simply the logistics of it whereby it's hard to track certain digital currencies or payment by other methods and therefore reliably demonatrate services were paid for?

The only thing that would stop you is the law? Fear of a criminal record? It sounds like you'd like it to be made illegal because you just couldn't/wouldn't stop otherwise.
Why will it only take for it to be made illegal for you to stop?

Potn · 29/03/2025 19:32

XXylophonic · 29/03/2025 18:58

The only thing that would stop you is the law? Fear of a criminal record? It sounds like you'd like it to be made illegal because you just couldn't/wouldn't stop otherwise.
Why will it only take for it to be made illegal for you to stop?

Edited

Show quote history

Yes a criminal record, fear of going to jail etc

Along the same lines as if cocaine were legal (and especially if it was easily accessible) then I'm almost certain I'd have taken it numerous times.

EmpressaurusKitty · 29/03/2025 19:47

If a man would only give up paying for sex through fear of being arrested, not through fear of being recognised as a pathetic misogynist wanker who thinks it’s acceptable to buy women’s bodies, then that says volumes about him as a person.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 29/03/2025 19:54

Christinapple · 29/03/2025 14:39

You refuse to call women (and men) who sell sex, sex workers. But you think calling or referring to them as spittoons or by their bodyparts is ok. I've also seen Nordic Model supporters compare booking a sexworker to ordering a pizza which sounds vulgar and dehumanising.

Notice how you and some others are completely ignoring the fact sexworkers in France aren't allowed to work together for safety (working together is illegal in all Nordic Model countries) and clients may demand the meeting takes place in more isolated locations to avoid being caught. This has led to murders. A sexworker, Petite Jasmine, was also murdered in Sweden by her ex bf after the police weren't interested in helping her, instead Social Services removed her children because she sold sex (they see it as "self harm").

Someone above mentioned pregnancy. In the Nordic Model condoms are used as evidence which means sexworkers and clients aren't going to carry or store them as another step to avoid being caught. Under legalisation or decriminalisation people can carry condoms without any issue. The NM just means the sex trade will operate "underground" with everyone involved taking steps to avoid being caught, steps which could comprise the safety of sexworkers in various ways.

There is a long list of human rights, health, HIV/AIDS, anti-trafficking and sexworker orgs who oppose the Nordic Model and advocate decriminalisation which NZ, Belgium and parts of Australia have. There are reasons for this, they didn't toss a coin to decide their position.

Show quote history

Under the Nordic Model, by definition, it is the punter who is arrested and charged, not the prostituted woman.

If condoms are being used as evidence against prostituted women to arrest and charge them, then that jurisdiction is not using the Nordic Model.

It's punters, not abolitionists, who see ordering a prostituted woman as akin to ordering a takeaway. Are you familiar with the concept of summarising someone else's stance?

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 29/03/2025 19:58

EmpressaurusKitty · 29/03/2025 19:47

If a man would only give up paying for sex through fear of being arrested, not through fear of being recognised as a pathetic misogynist wanker who thinks it’s acceptable to buy women’s bodies, then that says volumes about him as a person.

Edited

Absolutely. Potn is making me feel sick.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 29/03/2025 20:03

Potn · 29/03/2025 16:23

I'm not conflating legality with morality although I appreciate most people do. I'm just saying there needs to be a greater disincentive if we want to reduce prostitution. I'm also not saying by making prostitution illegal it would suddenly mean it would cease to exist but I'm sure it would have a drastic decrease in the number of men paying for sexual services.

I don't know any prostitutes who don't have an implant or are on the pill as well as demand that a condom is used. The pregnancy argument is a non starter imo.

I think nearly all workers would be reluctant to work if you removed any financial reward so again I don't really buy that argument (unless your stance is all work is slavery).

Even if I was an attractive homosexual I don't think I'd be tempted into prostitution no. It is hard to say for certain though without being in that position. There are many professions I wouldn't choose to do despite being a customer of.

Show quote history

I don't know any prostitutes who don't have an implant or are on the pill as well as demand that a condom is used.

A man describes the health-endangering steps that women take solely to avoid pregnancy, and then says...

The pregnancy argument is a non starter imo.

The pregnancy argument absolutely is a starter. You've literally aknowledged two pharmaceutical interventions, one of which quadruples a woman's risk of having a stroke, that she would not have to use if men paying to rape her didn't put her at risk of pregnancy in the process.

My Dsis ended up in hospital on clot-busters because of the Pill. Contraception is not a zero-risk option for women.

ByTicklishLimeBalonz · 29/03/2025 20:03

to stop the objectifying of women and feeding into the idea women's services can be brought, does that mean women will now stop using onlyfans ?

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 29/03/2025 20:09

New Zealand is not the successful poster child for decrim that you think it is. https://nordicmodelnow.org/2023/09/25/what-really-happened-in-new-zealand-after-prostitution-was-decriminalised/

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 29/03/2025 20:10

ByTicklishLimeBalonz · 29/03/2025 20:03

to stop the objectifying of women and feeding into the idea women's services can be brought, does that mean women will now stop using onlyfans ?

If men didn't buy, women wouldn't sell.

ByTicklishLimeBalonz · 29/03/2025 20:12

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 29/03/2025 20:10

If men didn't buy, women wouldn't sell.

Show quote history

and if women didnt offer then also no one would buy the product, it takes 2 to tango

EmpressaurusKitty · 29/03/2025 20:15

ByTicklishLimeBalonz · 29/03/2025 20:12

and if women didnt offer then also no one would buy the product, it takes 2 to tango

Show quote history

When women are being trafficked into prostitution do you count that as ‘offering’?