Why do people believe TWAW?

[hurdigurdi]

I’ve been making a list (because I like lists) but also have been trying my hardest to see the other side of the argument, as I think that’s the best way to see if an argument stands up. I have to admit it’s extremely hard to do because after you have peaked, it is very difficult to imagine being unpeaked.

Anyhow, here is my list of reasons people MAY believe TWAW (or indeed TMAM) and feel free to correct or add to it:

Why do people think TWAW?
“Be kind” and “live and let live” mentality
Group think & lack of critical thinking
Brainwashing
Fear of being cancelled/shamed/confronted/assaulted/losing job or career
Lack of knowledge of basic biology, sexual reproduction and DSDs
Ignorance of the physical differences between men and women (height, strength, lung capacity, heart size, arm span, foot and hand size, pelvis shape and function, sex organs, gait, Adam’s apple etc)
Have never met a detrans person or heard their story
Have never seen the harm gender ‘affirming’ surgery has done (botched neovagina, phalloplasty, mastectomy)
Does not know the risks and effects of taking opposite sex hormones on the body long term
Have never been assaulted by a male or a TIM
Have never competed against a male or a TIM in sports
Have never been in prison with a TIM
Internalised homophobia
Feelings of inadequacy as a man
Autism
Over consumption of porn
Inability to admit being wrong
Have facilitated the transing of a child (and therefore almost impossible to admit any harm has been caused)
Trauma or loss (especially of a mother or intimate partner)

those pesky male vaginas and ovaries getting "men" "in trouble".

That wrong body stuff is the claim they make to justify why their stereotypical idea of what a woman is their personal identity. Why should women give any credence to that, exactly?

The TWAW people that I know say is because sex is more complicated than we learn at school. It's a mix of chromosomes, hormones, genitals etc. Apparently none of us know that we are definitely male/ female as we've not had tests done to check our chromosomes and hormones. One of them even told me that I'm 'technically intersex' as i have pcos and higher levels of testosterone than is normal for women.

I do have PCOS (and enough testosterone to grow a beard) . But i only have pcos because I'm a woman. I don't need to have my hormones or chromosomes tested to know that. I've also had a miscarriage, a termination and 2 live births. I've breastfed without the need for drugs to make me lactate like transwomen need. I'm definitely female.

no one is assigned anything at birth.

Sometimes doctors and/or parents of babies with a DSD might call the sex wrong.

TRA's stole the "assigned at birth" language from people with DSD's.

There is nothing unique about the gender bollocks - they magpie stuff from every other movement and warp it to bully people into agreement.

You can bin the lot of it it with one exception - I'm holding on to the dragons. Everything's better if you add in some dragons.

Virtue signalling+peer pressure+ 'be kind' + left wing progressive

I think a lot of people don’t know enough about it - until 5 years or so ago I was in the “be kind” brigade. I don’t think I ever thought they were ACTUALLY women, but I would definitely have assumed they were causing no problems in society and “live and let live”.
It was only when Graham Linehan who I follow on Twitter got “cancelled” that I started to read more about it and then of course you see/understand more…and once you’ve seen it you can never go back.

@YourDenimJoker And again, I feel there should be space for common sense in these things. Biological men with histories of sex offences in women's prisons? No. Obviously not. Biological men who clearly identify as and live as female being able to access women's toilets? I don't see a problem.

That ship has sailed, sunk and is currently turning into a coral reef.

They are either women or they are not. Which is it???

No person in the world is born in the wrong body though.

So, can you tell us what other identities should be supported in society to the extent that those people are treated in anyway as they identify?

What about those people who have extreme body modifications to fulfil their identity needs as a reptile?

What about those who believe that they are children when they are adults with fully cognitive capacity?

How about those who identity as being disabled when they are verifiably healthy?

Why is this group to be treated in any way as if their identity is materially real? Why should any group of male people be given special exemptions when safeguarding is involved?

Plus, just because you, personally, wish to share a space meant to be single sex with a male person, why should your choice be the standard adopted by society when there are many others who do have an issue with sharing a space?

And again, I feel there should be space for common sense in these things. Biological men with histories of sex offences in women's prisons? No. Obviously not. Biological men who clearly identify as and live as female being able to access women's toilets? I don't see a problem.

How are women supposed to know at a glance what kind of 'transwoman' we are talking about?

Please tell me how anyone "lives as female"

Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the intelligence of the general public, as someone famous once said, I think. Only today there was a news report that around 1 in 5 of the UK population can't recognise badgers and robins from pictures. What hope is there that they will apply themselves to genetics? Also, it's horrifyingly common to put acceptance by the group above truth and principle.

Biological men who clearly identify as and live as female being able to access women's toilets? I don't see a problem. The cubicles lock anyway, what do I care if I have to wash hands next to someone who hasn't experienced periods.

No.

Biological men who clearly identify as and live as female

What does it mean to 'live as female'? Where is the line between 'clearly' doing so and doing so unclearly or half heartedly? Do all women live clearly enough as women, and if not where do they fit (I'm currently wearing trousers and no makeup, have just been doing some DIY and am planning a bit of maths this afternoon - am I living as a woman?)

I don't see a problem.

You don't get to consent for others.

The cubicles lock anyway,

Not very securely, in most cases. And there are gaps above and below. Have you looked into the number of sexual assaults and rapes in schools, and how many of those involve girls being attacked by boys in mixed sex loos (whether labelled single gender or not)? The number of cases of hidden cameras concealed in mixed sex loos, or phone cameras being slid under gaps between cubicles?

what do I care if I have to wash hands next to someone who hasn't experienced periods.

What if you've bled through your trousers or milk has leaked through your shirt, and you need to remove some clothing to wash and dry it? What of you have a small child in a buggy, which won't fit in the cubicle with the door closed so you have to pee or change a sanitary pad with the door open? What if you've retreated to the ladies because your having a miscarriage, or to get away from a man who's hassling you? Still don't care?

The TWAW people that I know say is because sex is more complicated than we learn at school. It's a mix of chromosomes, hormones, genitals etc. Apparently none of us know that we are definitely male/ female as we've not had tests done to check our chromosomes and hormones.

I find this particular talking-point/approach extra-special bananas. None of us know if we're or female because we'd need a test? And yet TWAW if they say so, even if they've had zero hormones or surgery, and everyone must bend over backwards to let them have everything that belongs to women, including their sports medals, and if anyone thinks testing their sex would be a reasonable option, they're a bigot. Oh and sex is complicated, it's not binary, it involves various factors and there's more to it than we learn at school. But the fact that this really is true of ethnicity, doesn't mean that you can identify as something you're not in that context. Because that would be racist and insulting people's lived experience. But if they're just women, it's OK to be sexist and insult their lived experience. But women don't really exist, but they are the ones whose actual real identities it's OK to cosplay and appropriate.

🧐

What’s needed is a Bobby Ewing Shower moment. We can pretend the last few years didn’t happen? Save the blushes of everyone and get back to reality.

A) No, there aren't studies that prove this. It is physiocally impossible. Your sex is imprinted every single cell of your body. You can ask Doctor Robert Winston if you are unsure.

B) Meeting one transsexual in the 70s doesn't say anything about the cultural phenomenopn that is transwomen in 2025

C) Hirst is a daytime local radio presenter who is an expert on nothing but their own personal dysfunctional relationship with their sex. They lived a life of white male privilege until nearly 40.

D) Robustly disagreeing with sloppy, nonfactual arguments is not hate, nastiness nor attacking.

E) Crime dramas are not a reliable source of scientific information.

“What if you've bled through your trousers or milk has leaked through your shirt, and you need to remove some clothing to wash and dry it? What of you have a small child in a buggy, which won't fit in the cubicle with the door closed so you have to pee or change a sanitary pad with the door open? What if you've retreated to the ladies because you’re having a miscarriage, or to get away from a man who's hassling you? Still don't care?”

I expect the answer is ‘doesn’t happen’. Or that it will be ‘well, that doesn’t happen often’. Or those few male people won’t be a bother. Or we should have all individual cubicles.

Just like so many people dismiss the need for those gaps for the safety of those who may need to be monitored from outside the cubicle such as those prone to collapse.

It doesn’t seem to register to those who say that some male people should use the female toilets that they have centred male people and dismissed the needs of female people.

KrankyKumquat

In addition to your list, I think that some (many?) people may not actually believe that TWAW but to say otherwise risks being aligned with some pretty awful people on the far right. It's a pretty uncomfortable position to be in, politically, when you find yourself in agreement with people who hold deplorable views on a range of issues.

But this isn't a "you" problem its a "them" problem.
Frankly if someone considers you right wing or a Nazi for knowing what biology is then its because they have no argument to put forward.

Jeepers, this level of ignorance is pretty scary. And as you say, those affirming the lie are complicit.

Biological men who clearly identify as and live as female being able to access women's toilets? I don't see a problem. The cubicles lock anyway, what do I care if I have to wash hands next to someone who hasn't experienced periods

have you ever met a biological man in a women’s toilets?

you brain automatically tries to understand the cognitive dissonance, and leaps to fight or flight. The Adrenalin rush is automatic, and you’re looking for exits without even realising.

i work in a secure field. Everyone is vetted. We work shifts, and the dress code is practical as it’s not unusual in the field to be climbing over shit and manually lifting stuff. So nearly everyone wears black trousers and boots/trainers.

we have a tiw joined recently. I was finishing up my shift at 1am, and nipped to the loo before going home. At this point the building is deserted, only the night shift manager and a few lingerers in. There are toilets on every floor, including accessible and unisex.

so I’m in the women’s wash my hands and turn toward the door to leave. I hear someone enter, so am ready to smile and say hi. Only to find myself staring at a pair of boobs in a twinset and pearls. I adjust my gaze upwards and realize that despite the Alice band and bob am looking at a 6’4 male. She is stood between me and the exit.

now while part of my brain knows this person works here, and will have been vetted, so is unlikely to be a danger, I panic. I automatically start looking for flight options, back into a stall and lock the door? That’s it really. Or try and fight them physically, which I will definitely lose. If that person had chosen to do me harm they could have, very easily, with no one around to hear me scream. I knew it, they knew it.

fortunately they backed out and left almost immediately. But those few seconds fear was visceral, and not something I want to experience again.

No matter how sorry you may feel for these men or how harmless you think they are - what would possible be the justification for allowing them into women's spaces?

The argument is not made for any other group of potentially vulnerable men - disabled/gay/older/etc. So why just this group?

So why just this group?

Everyone on this board knows the answer to @TheKeatingFive 's (rhetorical) question

Because the group it advantages is male and the group it ignores, disparages and puts at risk is only female. Female people don't count.

‘Biological men who clearly identify as and live as female being able to access women's toilets? I don't see a problem. The cubicles lock anyway, what do I care if I have to wash hands next to someone who hasn't experienced periods. The whole debate always descends into this trying to simplify things into neat buckets, either trans women are women or they aren't and if they are they get all these things and if they aren't they don't. Why not just trans women are trans women and there's some nuance and space for specificity and common sense within that category.’

I think this is a somewhat naive take. You can’t ignore all the instances where TIM’s have accessed women’s spaces and it hasn’t ended well, and then we’re told that these things hardly ever happen, until the next time. How many women being harmed in this way is acceptable to you - 1, 10, 20? Because for me it’s 0. Nuance is great, except we don’t know who the predatory men are until it’s too late, that’s why we want to keep them all out, no matter how they identify.
Trans women aren’t women, they’re men, people can’t change sex. It’s not complicated, sex is binary and immutable. Safeguarding is there for a reason, or it was, until people started believing this utter nonsense.

Let’s see:

Because these male people ‘live as female people’. With there being no logic to how this can ever happen.

Because this group are even more vulnerable than the other male people who are vulnerable. With absolutely no evidence being available in the UK that this is true.

Because it is respectful and kind. When it is disrespectful and unkind to ignore the needs or dismiss the needs of female people who don’t want to share spaces with male people.

Because it is not that many.

Because they are born in the wrong body.

Because they have earned it by living as a woman / having surgery / their life is so hard.

Because they take female hormones.

Because they ‘pass’ and who can tell anyway.

Because how would you police it anyway.

Because if those male people are excluded, female people who present as male will be abused.

Because if those male people are excluded, you will all have to deal with female people who have taken testosterone and ‘pass’ as men.

Because those male people just want to pee. Despite the fact that female people have much more complex needs for toilets that are limited to being behind closed cubicle doors.

Because it will make those male people happy and not sad and traumatised.

Because ‘male’ cleaners.

Because male predators are going to enter anyway.

Because surely people have a gender neutral toilet at home and they don’t have any problems.

Because female people are more at risk at home than of strangers in toilets.

I could go on.

“How many women being harmed in this way is acceptable to you - 1, 10, 20?”

“Because for me it’s 0.”

It is a zero from me too.