Ireland

[SuperSleepyBaby]

Reading about the Sandi Peggy case and the various issues that have arisen in Scotland - the rape crisis centre, secret cameras in mixed sex toilets in schools, Isla Bryson, Katies Dolatowski etc - it makes me think, is there just as much issues in Ireland?

i know Barbie Kardashian, the male player on a women’s GAA team. Are there as many issues in Ireland as there is in Scotland, but not really reported on in Ireland?

The issue can of course be discussed at any time. Except during Pride month, obviously. Or Trans History month. Or an unreasonably short time (less than 2, maybe 3, months) before or after either of those months. Or too close to trans remembrance.day, or trans day of visibility, or asexual awareness week, or IDAHOBIT, or ...

But any other time.

Thanks so much Nebulousbiologist for your post about how the Irish media has dealt with trans issues, it's very interesting and detailed. Very useful thanks!

..or even 'Very useful comma thanks'

Anyone else wondering when (if ever) we are going to have our own reckoning like the one that is happening in the UK?

I heard the news reports on Wednesday about the judgement on the radio in work - of course there was only a soundbite from a TW doing sad voice about how terrible this is… nothing from women’s groups.

It feels like we are so far behind the UK; our Equality Act is nonsense, Self ID is already in place.

It also seems like people don’t want to rock the boat here, I have talked about it in real life and most people agree it’s bullshit, but if you follow mainstream media they don’t report on stuff, so it goes under the radar.

I know it's an Irish stereotype that we're a rebellious, cantankerous people, but that's a story we tell to flatter ourselves. Irish conformism runs as deep as it does in any other small country.

I think lots of people in Ireland are pretending to be wokelords the same way as their parents or grandparents pretended to be conservative Catholics, until a tipping point was reached and then they pretended they'd never believed in any of that stuff.

It's a story the Brits told about is too. Formerly about 25'% of the British Army consisted of Irish men. Economic conscription I think it is called. Hence the myth of ' the fighting Irish ' celebrated by Kipling and other writers. Whereas really we are very easy going and placid. Witness Greek protesters chanting ' we are not the Irish!' when the IMF / EU imposed spending cuts on them.
However , our laws are essentially the same as English laws and I think this ruling could perhaps be used as a precedent or at least as a legal argument to try and change our daft Self ID and Equality Act?

Sometimes when I look at my family history (which is mostly northern to be fair) I feel like Gary Sinise in Forrest Gump saying every generation of his ancestors fought and died in an American war. Mine ended up in every corner of the world where the British Empire sent them.

I know it's an Irish (and Scottish and Welsh) thing to define ourselves against England, but the big neighbour has to have an influence. My theory is that a lot of the momentum behind self-ID was getting ahead of the Brits, but assuming they'd end up in the same place. Proving you can do things differently will make the argument interesting.

Katherine Zappone working hard to make a name for herself ahead of a presidential bid. Not understanding Ireland (or anything else).

Totally agree with that take @SionnachRuadh. Official Ireland and Scotland are both in headlong flight from organised religion - with good reason in fairness. But it often takes the form if kneejeek opposition to whatever the church / kirk wants. Therefore Self ID must be a good thing. And how sweet it is to be more liberal than the English. A veritable poster boy for the new Europe.
Well @DeanElderberry Zappone won't get a sniff of the Áras methinks. She has pissed off too many people. Sadly I think Cokehead McRapeface is more likely to win. Catherine Connolly would be my choice. But having said that I've no idea where she is on this issue. There again it is a larger ceremonial job so the trick is not to elect an actual psychopath?

In 2015 Zappone could have reasonably assumed that MDH would stick to his promise not to run in 2018, and have misinterpreted the rural vote in favour of equal marriage as an endorsement of a package of 'progressive' values, rather than as a way to sort out inheritance rights and access to grandchildren.

I agree she has written herself out of the running over the last decade.

I know it's an Irish (and Scottish and Welsh) thing to define ourselves against England, but the big neighbour has to have an influence. My theory is that a lot of the momentum behind self-ID was getting ahead of the Brits,

Yes, and surely you could say the same to a large extent about Sturgeon and the SNP?

But do you think the UK SC ruling will have much impact in Ireland?

I think it has to have an impact, at least in legal circles. Because if British law is a mess then I don't think it's much of a stretch to think Irish law could be pretty messy as well.

Usual disclaimer, IANAL and my long ago legal training was in the English system, but gender self-ID being sneaked in as an adjunct to same sex marriage with very little scrutiny is a red flag to me.

SionnachRuadh My theory is that a lot of the momentum behind self-ID was getting ahead of the Brits, but assuming they'd end up in the same place. Proving you can do things differently will make the argument interesting.

Having read the parliamentary debates and committee minutes discussing the Gender Recognition Bill in the Dáil, I don't think 'getting ahead of the Brits' played much part in the discussions. 'The Brits' were seen as pretty out-there at the time with their liberal abortion laws and gay rights..

A lot of it seemed to be fuelled by a 'genuine' belief that transgender people were a marginalised minority like gay people used to be, and were entitled to the same legal rights. 'Genuine', but based on an uncritical acceptance of everything that TENI [Transgender Equality Network Ireland] were telling them - it's astonishing to read the way TENI was deferred to by not just the politicos but also the medical and educational establishment.

This is pure Denton's-in-action. DENTON’S DOCUMENT – THE GENDER COLLECTION for anyone unfamiliar with it].
Like a lot of things in social history, I think it was a case of a moment when a number of things came together: the Irish establishment was feeling very liberal, the Denton's plan of action existed, and a trans rights group was in position to deploy the Denton's plan.

I think it was all superficial, I don't think the grassroots of all the enthusiastically TWAW parties, or The Plain People of Ireland, ever truly believed that men can become women, and that a GRC proves that a man is now actually a woman.

edited to acknowledge and agree with Sionnach's last post.

It all (across Europe, including the UK, not just Ireland) followed logically, step by step, from the Lydia Foy debates.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Foy

The way it usually works in the north is that the Belfast Telegraph, being a pretty good barometer of the professional classes, starts saying "it's [the current year], we have to introduce [progressive policy] in NI or the Brits will think we're backward". This is followed up by the unions and the NGO sector affirming that it's the current year and not a previous year, followed by SF, SDLP, Alliance and the urban wing of the UUP.

Seems to me a bloody silly way to argue for social change, even the ones I agree with, but there you go.

The political debate is of course different in the north because the DUP exists. IME the same gap exists between the supporters of the other parties and their TWAW politicians, but the politicians can't move because they define themselves against the DUP.

I never thought I'd be grateful for the existence of the DUP...

But the UK Supreme Court has given a good opportunity to reverse ferret, for those who want to take it.

I never thought I'd be grateful for the existence of the DUP...

Indeed I even find myself liking some of Beattie’s tweets. I’m inclined to think an issue that cuts across sectarian lines is a good thing.

I am wondering why my post is still hidden 18 hours after I posted it. It was just a link to an article about David Cullinane, SF health spokesman, doing a U turn following backlash from T and I P*ide. I am wondering which word triggered an automatic censoring.
Different link in this post but same story
https://x.com/CMacCoille/status/1912918424562327711?t=kplJBAVty7TTsh8je42dTw&s=19

I've long thought that Dave Cullinane was one of the more sensible people in SF. Sadly he is yet to grow a backbone.

SionnachRuadh
The way it usually works in the north is that the Belfast Telegraph, being a pretty good barometer of the professional classes, starts saying "it's [the current year], we have to introduce [progressive policy] in NI or the Brits will think we're backward".

But surely most of the readership of the Belfast Telegraph are Brits, and rather keen to stay that way??

National Women's Council
response to the fact both women and transgender people are protected by the Equality laws in the UK. I would have expected a happier response.

Big Dave isn't happy, huh?

Northern Unionists are an odd tribe who aren't very well understood by outsiders.

They want to remain part of the UK state, and they identify with the Crown, but actually existing Great Britain is quite foreign in a lot of ways.

We might be closer to a united Ireland now if the south hadn't gone even more woke than Britain.

They should really rename themselves the national trans council.

I suppose the one positive is that we do look at what happens in the UK, so the fact that this is happening over there is enough to bring up discussion and even awareness - if you’re around next we’re relying on Irish media you’d never know there was an issue.
Maybe it will cause more people here to have a look at our own Equality laws and see how bonkers they are.