Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie facing internal misconduct hearing this week!

373 replies

NotAtMyAge · 16/02/2025 23:26

Utterly mind-blowing to read that NHS Fife is pressing ahead with a disciplinary hearing this Friday against Sandie Peggie, despite the Employment Tribunal not having completed its work. Sandie isn't taking this lying down and has started separate legal proceedings according to The Telegraph, which also includes the stunned reaction of Michael Foran to the news in its report.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/ea111fbd4a9af5a6

Archive version: https://archive.ph/lsriA

OP posts:
ConstructionTime · 17/02/2025 14:19

EmpressoftheMundane · 17/02/2025 09:15

How can we help/support Sandie?

write to MPs and health politicians
write to NHS Fife
ask other hospitals what their policy is (the reply is less important, it's the fact that they see people are waking up)
ask any other provider / school and others who happen to have changing rooms what they are doing - the more this comes to light the better. It's less about their replies but that they see how the public reacts.

Useful material and arguments are on the page of sex-matters
https://sex-matters.org/where-sex-matters/

There is a petition to reveal the GRA, too.

I was so struck by ED (?) claiming that she did not think one second about what her decision on the changing room meant for all of the other nurses, can't figure out if that was really her thinking or that a female line manager would not think a second about their female workforce. And does ED use the same changing room?

User0103 · 17/02/2025 14:28

Yes, I don't think you can discipline someone at work for something that happened outside of work.

I don’t think this is correct. e.g. if you were convicted of hooliganism then you could be dismissed as bringing the organization in disrepute. Even if they didn’t dismiss other people for ostensibly more serious offences (e.g. Domestic Violence on a former partner).

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 17/02/2025 14:42

Re the board and responsibility. Rhona sits on a hospital board, so she knows how they operate in practice in Scotland.
https://x.com/HotchkissRhona/status/1891471288012587474

ConstructionTime · 17/02/2025 14:51

@User0103 I agree that there are exceptions, but to compel people to use specific ideologic language outside of their workplace would not match the description.
Otherwise all NHS employees would have to use the "right" pronouns in their free time, regardless of whether they agree or not. If they use this as reason, it would be valid at least for all of NHS Fife, if not for all of NHS. They cannot apply this on one person only. Then they would have to monitor everyone who works for them 24/7.

User0103 · 17/02/2025 15:02

ConstructionTime · 17/02/2025 14:51

@User0103 I agree that there are exceptions, but to compel people to use specific ideologic language outside of their workplace would not match the description.
Otherwise all NHS employees would have to use the "right" pronouns in their free time, regardless of whether they agree or not. If they use this as reason, it would be valid at least for all of NHS Fife, if not for all of NHS. They cannot apply this on one person only. Then they would have to monitor everyone who works for them 24/7.

Agree completely.

Pronouns cannot be compelled at work. thanks @hiyamaya to Maya Forstater.

AnSolas · 17/02/2025 15:13

@Alicethroughtheblackmirror
Could you please link her other X post as I am not on it and google is not finding them?
Thanks

0ctavia · 17/02/2025 15:25

Legal question please for any Scots Law bods here - surely Sandies legal team can ask for a higher court ( UTT or court of session ? ) to make an order preventing NHS Fife from holding a disciplinary hearing until after the ET gives its findings?

NHS Fife’s actions seem clearly designed to thwart the ET proceedings.

They can’t argue any urgency due to patient safety concerns - if that was a real concern, SP would be on paid leave .

DrMaxwell · 17/02/2025 15:29

BBC News - Changing room row nurse faces disciplinary hearing
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3d5d0x97vyo

I noticed the BBC haven't used DU pronouns in the article, they have used SPs, also the article seems factual and balanced. Is this a turning point?

Bannedontherun · 17/02/2025 15:34

I think that is what they are doing but in another tribunal.

Needspaceforlego · 17/02/2025 15:36

ToBeOrNotToBee · 17/02/2025 14:07

Christ it's almost like NHS Fife want to lose the case and pay substantial damages.

Maybe they want to lose to blow the whole TWAW nonsense into Outer Space once and for all.

Someone needs to take a test case all the way.
This one could very well be it.
It has absolutely everything. Employees, Changing rooms, Medical Treatment, people acting without HR.

Pluvia · 17/02/2025 15:44

popefully · 17/02/2025 10:16

It would be to GC women's benefit if people could refrain from speculation about individuals and their family members etc.

I always put my head in my hands when I read all the "they've got a trans child/brother" etc as that doesn't necessarily dictate their views, and even if it did, it's not fair to blame them for things others have said or done.

I don't agree. It doesn't always, but often it does. Helen Joyce is one of several leading GC women who have talked about the phenomenon. Many of us will know people in RL whom one would ordinarily expect to be GC — older second wave lesbians and feminists, for example — who are fighting for the trans cause because they have children or grandchildren or sometimes even partners who are trans.

For a couple of years, in this area, the fact that one 'older stateswoman' of the local lesbian community, a woman with a long woman-focussed history, went full-on TRA left many women confused and troubled by their gender critical feelings. It held up the GC movement in this town because quite a few women felt if she was supporting the T there must be good reason for them to, too. It was only when it became know that this woman's son had transitioned that things made sense and women felt free to go with their GC views.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 17/02/2025 15:56

Pluvia · 17/02/2025 15:44

I don't agree. It doesn't always, but often it does. Helen Joyce is one of several leading GC women who have talked about the phenomenon. Many of us will know people in RL whom one would ordinarily expect to be GC — older second wave lesbians and feminists, for example — who are fighting for the trans cause because they have children or grandchildren or sometimes even partners who are trans.

For a couple of years, in this area, the fact that one 'older stateswoman' of the local lesbian community, a woman with a long woman-focussed history, went full-on TRA left many women confused and troubled by their gender critical feelings. It held up the GC movement in this town because quite a few women felt if she was supporting the T there must be good reason for them to, too. It was only when it became know that this woman's son had transitioned that things made sense and women felt free to go with their GC views.

I don't think people's personal circumstances explain much. For every person like the one you describe, there'll be one (like me) who's decided to read about trans because someone close to them has decided to 'transition'. Then, when they find out all about it, peak faster than Sherpa Tensing.

Pluvia · 17/02/2025 16:03

But if that person is important or has power or influence then the outcome can be pretty dramatic. Look at Jolyon Maugham and all the havoc he's wreaked. The same with politicians.

Drfosters · 17/02/2025 16:04

It is immensely strange though the whole thing. I assumed they had gone through all this bit in order for there to be a charge of harassment. Fife’s barrister on more than one occasion accused her of harassment but it would appear that internally they have yet to find her guilty of harassment.

the timelines are bizarre.

AnSolas · 17/02/2025 16:08

DrMaxwell · 17/02/2025 15:29

BBC News - Changing room row nurse faces disciplinary hearing
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3d5d0x97vyo

I noticed the BBC haven't used DU pronouns in the article, they have used SPs, also the article seems factual and balanced. Is this a turning point?

Visuals are a manipulation (hers are crisp his are not)
As is burying the is not a female in the middle
Doctor is a social manipulation (doc = male) which kind of works against him.

NotAtMyAge · 17/02/2025 16:19

DrMaxwell · 17/02/2025 15:29

BBC News - Changing room row nurse faces disciplinary hearing
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3d5d0x97vyo

I noticed the BBC haven't used DU pronouns in the article, they have used SPs, also the article seems factual and balanced. Is this a turning point?

All the BBC coverage on this case I've seen has been published in the appropriate local news section, so Edinburgh, Fife & East, rather than the whole of Scotland or indeed the UK as a whole. All the reports have been similar, in that they haven't used pronouns for him, just his name. My guess is a fair-minded and careful journalist, very much not taking the gender-compliant approach as too many BBC journalist do.

OP posts:
popefully · 17/02/2025 16:27

Pluvia · 17/02/2025 15:44

I don't agree. It doesn't always, but often it does. Helen Joyce is one of several leading GC women who have talked about the phenomenon. Many of us will know people in RL whom one would ordinarily expect to be GC — older second wave lesbians and feminists, for example — who are fighting for the trans cause because they have children or grandchildren or sometimes even partners who are trans.

For a couple of years, in this area, the fact that one 'older stateswoman' of the local lesbian community, a woman with a long woman-focussed history, went full-on TRA left many women confused and troubled by their gender critical feelings. It held up the GC movement in this town because quite a few women felt if she was supporting the T there must be good reason for them to, too. It was only when it became know that this woman's son had transitioned that things made sense and women felt free to go with their GC views.

It was wrong in this case and completely uncalled for.

It held up the GC movement in this town because quite a few women felt if she was supporting the T there must be good reason for them to, too. It was only when it became know that this woman's son had transitioned that things made sense and women felt free to go with their GC views.

I'd argue that critical thinking is even more important when it's something someone 'like yourself' is advocating.

Others might have come to the conclusion that because her son had transitioned that she knew more about it and was probably right. In either case, it doesn't affect whether the position being put forward is true and fair, or not.

I'll always argue for clear thinking over 'belief by association'!

SquirrelSoShiny · 17/02/2025 16:58

CocoapuffPuff · 17/02/2025 11:31

Nhs Fife really have decided to scuttle the entire fleet over this, haven't they?

For one man.

For one single solitary snivelling man.

Most oppressed my fat arse.

👏👏👏

SquirrelSoShiny · 17/02/2025 17:03

medianewbie · 17/02/2025 10:06

But the SNP will entirely support this.
I have a female yp who wants to go into nursing in NHS Scotland & this wrong- headedness worries me a lot. The SNP thinking is wrong (& they will win here next time as Farage is much too English to appeal). It is applied by local authorities who then double down & severely punish anyone who doesn't fall in line.

I meant actual grown ups, not ideologues who think like impassioned sixth formers Wink Joking aside, I'm starting to think this kind of stuff simply can't ever be devolved. It's too far-reaching.

NotAComputerPerson · 17/02/2025 17:46

Drfosters · 17/02/2025 16:04

It is immensely strange though the whole thing. I assumed they had gone through all this bit in order for there to be a charge of harassment. Fife’s barrister on more than one occasion accused her of harassment but it would appear that internally they have yet to find her guilty of harassment.

the timelines are bizarre.

Agreed.

I can’t get my head round their thought process.

Surely this is plain as day evidence of victimisation. It’s an astonishing turn of events.

Unless it’s suddenly dawned on them that they haven’t completed the investigation process and they are trying to do it before July? Like you say, it’s just bizarre.

Faffertea · 17/02/2025 17:52

CuddyCuddler · 17/02/2025 11:22

Surprise! Things are different in Scotland. GPs are NHS staff.

Thanks I was unaware of that.
Are they employed directly by health boards then in the same way as hospital doctors?

Probably just as well I’m south of the border….

IwantToRetire · 17/02/2025 17:59

AnSolas · 17/02/2025 13:32

@Alicethroughtheblackmirror
The board will have had very little input (so far) with the cause of this snafu. It's management led by EDI. Of course, one can never discount laziness or incompetence!

Sorry I disagree on the input.

The board have oversight (or should have) to all the policy which fences in what the organistion can or can not do.
And are there to control the organisation so need to have a reporting system in place to make sure that the various department heads report the good and the bad.

Thats how delegated authority works. Failure to report is hire error (of Senior Managers) and lack of control.

So
HR should have a line item of the potential need for an ET to when legal papers confirmed it was happening.
Legal should have a line item to prove that they are aware and are progressing with some kind of plan plus likely outcome
Finance should have had a line item to cover the cost of external legal (estimate then quote) and the maximum expected payout (if applying modern accounting standards)
The hospital believed they could get a closed door hearing and no bad PR but Communications should have had a plan.

One can work through the department heads who should have a need to include the legal action as a job requirement.
Plus they all had a whistleblowing option as it was about has the hospital broke the law.

Individuals on the boad may not have passed the policy or can be out voted or get poor reports or poor legal advice but ownership remains with them.

I doubt that any board has daily input into what Management are doing.

ie paid staff are paid to carry out the work that a Board gives an overall aim, direction.

So depending on how often a Board meets they might find that in between 2 meetings a whole shit show like this has taken place.

However in delegating paid to staff to carry out the daily functioning of the organisation, it is also likely that individual board members will have specific responsibility for example finances, personnel etc., and that the relevant paid member of staff would contact that board member to alert them to a potential issue that might have repercussions on the reputation of the organisation - or is on a legal border line.

So the board could be held responsible for employing people who are either incompetent or using their position to impose their personal views or whatever.

But in any case, given the publicity this Board must be aware that there is an issue and may well have asked for an up date and not wait to a regular report for the next Board meeting.

Although of course if in the past the Board has agreed a policy that specifically instructs employees to further a TWAW agenda then obviously they are directly responsible.

Although you would think after the ERCC court case, they wouldn't do this. As far as I know in that case there was no ruling that said ERCC (and therefore other groups) had to accept that biological females are women and TW aren't. What they were told is they cant impose this on users and employees, and cant bully them to believe this.

However as we have seen despite Roz Adams winning her employment case about having the right to be honest to users, not many if any organisations in Scotland have made any changes to how they work or their position on TW.

SirChenjins · 17/02/2025 18:02

Faffertea · 17/02/2025 17:52

Thanks I was unaware of that.
Are they employed directly by health boards then in the same way as hospital doctors?

Probably just as well I’m south of the border….

They’re not all NHS employees - that poster was incorrect.

NotAtMyAge · 17/02/2025 18:16

I've just seen that the BBC have updated their latest item on the case to say that Friday's hearing has been rescheduled at Sandie Peggie's request.

"The BBC has learned that NHS Fife has scheduled a conduct hearing to examine allegations against Ms Peggie of misconduct, failures of patient care and misgendering Dr Upton. The potential outcomes range from no case to dismissal.
The hearing was originally due to take place on Friday but has been rescheduled at Ms Peggie's request.
In response, her legal team are planning further action in the form of another tribunal claim."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3d5d0x97vyo

https://x.com/tlitb/status/1891545354350276633

OP posts:
ConstructionTime · 17/02/2025 18:19

Someone started a campaign on change.org to show support for Nurse Peggie and the others who are in the same situation:

https://www.change.org/p/support-nhs-nurse-sandie-peggie-threatened-with-dismissal?source_location=search&lang=en-GB