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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mumsnet listed as Anti-Trans

882 replies

Hoosemover · 08/02/2025 17:21

there a list of organisations and Mumsnet is on it. Along with the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

x.com/twisterfilm/status/1888255119449268674?s=61

OP posts:
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15
Enough4me · 11/02/2025 09:46

@Darker I respect you are a believer. I'm a non believer. You can use the term CIS but it has no relevance to me and I don't want a label that means nothing applied to me.
I'm not a non-Catholic for example, but you may choose to be Catholic.

Hoppinggreen · 11/02/2025 09:49

Darker · 11/02/2025 09:22

This thread seems to be mostly cis-gender people explaining what being transgender is and what they think about it (using their own definitions) and commenting on people’s appearance and mental health.

Then they wonder why the site is listed as anti-trans.

From experience I await another lecture on why I shouldn’t be using the word ‘cis’.

So why use that word if you know its offensive?
It seems that only words used to describe Trans people are "literal violence"
And being Trans gender actually has a definition

Darker · 11/02/2025 09:55

Why do some people use the word ‘ideology’ in a debate about transgender if that is a word many actual transgender people would disagree with?

Enough4me · 11/02/2025 09:57

It's an ideology with believers and you are one @Darker

Waitwhat23 · 11/02/2025 09:59

Darker · 11/02/2025 09:55

Why do some people use the word ‘ideology’ in a debate about transgender if that is a word many actual transgender people would disagree with?

Why do you use the word cis when it is a word that many actual women would disagree with?

EasternStandard · 11/02/2025 10:01

Darker · 11/02/2025 09:22

This thread seems to be mostly cis-gender people explaining what being transgender is and what they think about it (using their own definitions) and commenting on people’s appearance and mental health.

Then they wonder why the site is listed as anti-trans.

From experience I await another lecture on why I shouldn’t be using the word ‘cis’.

Why is it important to you to be anti women though?

With language and dismissing women's views

ErrolTheDragon · 11/02/2025 10:04

Darker · 11/02/2025 09:55

Why do some people use the word ‘ideology’ in a debate about transgender if that is a word many actual transgender people would disagree with?

No idea what your problem with the word 'ideology' is.
A set of doctrines or beliefs that are shared by the members of a social group or that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.

Feminism is an ideology, so is democracy. It's not remotely a negative term.

I don't think there's a particularly coherent 'transgender ideology' but a statement such as statement 'Transwomen are women' an ideological position, not a scientifically validated fact. It's something you may believe but many people don't.

NotBadConsidering · 11/02/2025 10:04

Of course trans identifying males all think they pass. They post photos of themselves on Reddit looking obviously male but all the comments are automatically affirming, so the cycle continues.

Calling Mumsnet “anti trans” is like calling the Royal Astronomical Society “anti Flat Earth”.

Helleofabore · 11/02/2025 10:20

Cis is an inaccurate word that has been borrowed to give legitimacy to a theoretical belief.

Cis merely means 'assigned a particular sex at birth'. It really is then not unique to female or male people who don't have a gender identity, or transgender identity. It is therefore a misused term.

AnSolas · 11/02/2025 10:20

Helleofabore · 10/02/2025 20:28

I believe that if a job has been specified as being for a specific sex, or has specific sex requirements, then I believe there should be honesty about that sex characteristic. Otherwise, why should their sex matter if they fulfill the other requirements?

Genuinely, if a job role has a requirement specific to a person’s sex, do you believe they should be dishonest about their sex?

Edited

Do you think there are jobs they shouldn’t do?

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 that is a interesting, its sex and 'trans' when employers only have an exception for sex.

I think that your partner a female, could not have been appointed to the leadership role in that Scotish Rape Crisis services.

The leadership role because it was a sex specific leadership role had an unspoken 'and be seen to be of the sex' element. The service is not-for-profit business in the charity sector. Your partners personal circumstance meant the female and seen as female requirement can never met.

The hire process sex exception is a choice. So the first screening process should have been a simple 'are you a female' question. Your partner could truthfully answer yes but any male is telling a lie.
I do not believe that the male who was appointed would have gotten that job without ticking the 'passable enough' box. So male+trans who's too male presenting or female+trans whos too male presenting would have been rejected
If your parther was 'not passable enough' and got the job TMAM activism would have resulted in sacking your partner for being a man and being dishonest.

The CV stage is a prior experience = can do job.
At interview stage is a will the face fit. Your partner would have gotten 2 different reactions between suit with 'breastcut" and high heels and suit with 'chestcut' and boot heels.

With optic 2 TMAM panel members are in a bit of pickle. Their problem is how do they establish your partner (who is a qualified, female and otherwise best fit) is not woman enough for the job when they hire a male who was the alternative.

The 'seen to be' bit.

Fundementaly government should be providing the services directly within the Health system. If it was happening the leadership role would not be as important.
(The healthcare on non-direct provision is a reflection of how womens (mainly) rights to 'whole care' health care is not a core to government health policy. (To put it very crudely its like a stroke paitent with motor function loss being told we dont do physio or any of that follow-on stuff.))

I do believe that the provision of services would still have ended up where it did because your partner (the hired male) would not have been involved in ignoring the core strategic missions
▪︎providing a service to service users which is fit for purpose. (largest group will always be women so the bulk of the money to buy services is spent on women)
▪︎ fundraising to ensure service provision.

The employer (women mainly) imposing the TWAW ideology on to the service did so without regard to the 'to be fit for purpose' element and that is why the change in culture and ethos failed its largest demographic.

The funding.

The stigma around sexual crimes, and even the idea that a man could not rape his wife meant that it was quicker for people seeking social change to fund raise and provide the care outside the system. Society agreed that it was a social good and provided 'invested' via personal charitable donations and eventually 'investing' by 'charity'' funding from tax funds.

Ignoring the services oversight and failings in that area, the funding has a large PR element and the complex social link of man/male plus rapist V woman/female plus victim exists

So that employer would have had to tap dance on TWAW so TMAM but in the end would not hire your qualified best for the job partner because your partner was trans.

Would you agree that it would be your partner being 'trans' enough to 'pass' would be the employers problem and/or under TMAM rolling back 16 years being 'trans and not yet passing but aiming to pass' would still be the employers problem?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2025 10:21

Why do some people use the word ‘ideology’ in a debate

Because it literally is an ideology that some men should be classed as women and all that follows from that. It's not a fact that some men are women.

HipMax · 11/02/2025 10:23

Hoppinggreen · 11/02/2025 09:49

So why use that word if you know its offensive?
It seems that only words used to describe Trans people are "literal violence"
And being Trans gender actually has a definition

Does it? Please share it then.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2025 10:25

Of course trans identifying males all think they pass. They post photos of themselves on Reddit looking obviously male but all the comments are automatically affirming, so the cycle continues.

This. Observing the court case going on at the moment where the barrister isn't allowed to say that an obvious man is obviously male, which is true.

ErrolTheDragon · 11/02/2025 10:36

@Hoppinggreen - however, the wiki page you link to says "Transgender does not have a universally accepted definition, including among researchers".

ErrolTheDragon · 11/02/2025 10:38

And then, the various definitions of transgender depend on what exactly you mean by 'gender'. How does being 'transgender' differ from simply being gender-nonconforming?

AnSolas · 11/02/2025 10:43

Darker · 11/02/2025 09:22

This thread seems to be mostly cis-gender people explaining what being transgender is and what they think about it (using their own definitions) and commenting on people’s appearance and mental health.

Then they wonder why the site is listed as anti-trans.

From experience I await another lecture on why I shouldn’t be using the word ‘cis’.

You can use the word 'cis' it clearly shows that you have a social acceptantance that 2 sex exist.

You can use the word ''gender'' it clearly shows that you have a social acceptantance that 2 sex exist and are attributed social roles.

And that you are attempting to social engineer a change in the social order developed around the 2 class existing while pretending you are not trying to engage in social engineering.

AnSolas · 11/02/2025 10:55

Kucinghitam · 11/02/2025 09:41

This thread has some extremely educational demonstrations of how "Irregular Verbs/Nouns" work on The Right Side of History.

If you want fun and have the time go to the Stonewall Riot highly edited wiki page and look at the actìon verbs and the passive verbs used while rioting was happening.

ID the dragon, the princess and the knight in shining armour.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2025 11:08

I don't accept the term "cis" as a legitimate concept. It's ideological jargon which absent a belief in gender identity makes zero sense, If people want to use it that's fine, but I'm not going to frame anything in that way.

BeaAndBen · 11/02/2025 11:29

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 11/02/2025 04:02

So you see trans people as having a mental illness that needs to be cured?

I understand that in having a transman for a partner this all feels very personal to you, so I apologise if I don’t manage to phrase this quite right, but I’m going to have a try…

As I understand your position - To be trans, you must feel that the physical being that you are, your sexed body, is not right. That you should be the opposite sex to be happy, healthy and feel whole within yourself.

From that position, you transition medically through hormone treatments and surgery to better live life as your ‘acquired gender’. To be perceived as and treated as the opposite of your own sex.

Am I on track so far?

If so, how is that not a mental health issue? If someone is so concerned with their own body being ‘wrong’ or incongruous or distressing - and we are our bodies, we aren’t ghosts inhabiting meat suits - how is that a healthy state of mind?

If the options are helping someone to accept who they are or giving them powerful, health-endangering opposite sex hormones and amputating otherwise healthy body parts… isn’t it the compassionate thing to do to help them accept themselves and their bodies?

Wouldn’t we rather work with people to help them love themselves as they are born? Whether it’s size, race, disability, sex, appearance or anything else, surely the best outcome is for people to be at peace with themselves with no drugs or surgery needed.

Helleofabore · 11/02/2025 13:30

I think that the very fresh and latest Yougov poll puts this discussion into perspective.

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/51545-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-202425

I think that if anyone actually believes that questioning gender identity and accommodations made by law and policy is 'far right' and 'Trump supporter' ... they really need to read this poll.

A majority of Labour voters are quite close to alignment with Tory voters on these issues as a general statement. We have been saying all along that this is not a left - right wing issue. This is an issue of interest across the political spectrum.

Maybe, just maybe, we will get less people making such thought terminating cliqued accusations in the future and more discussion.

Mumsnet listed as Anti-Trans
Darker · 11/02/2025 14:32

People are also anti-migrant, and use terms like ‘illegal’ to describe asylum seekers. It’s opinion.

In my living memory we had section 28.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2025 14:45

It's relevant @Darker because it's often claimed that most people don't agree with women on Mumsnet. That's what this thread is about.

This is false, when it comes to "trans acceptance".

AnSolas · 11/02/2025 14:45

Helleofabore · 11/02/2025 13:30

I think that the very fresh and latest Yougov poll puts this discussion into perspective.

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/51545-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-202425

I think that if anyone actually believes that questioning gender identity and accommodations made by law and policy is 'far right' and 'Trump supporter' ... they really need to read this poll.

A majority of Labour voters are quite close to alignment with Tory voters on these issues as a general statement. We have been saying all along that this is not a left - right wing issue. This is an issue of interest across the political spectrum.

Maybe, just maybe, we will get less people making such thought terminating cliqued accusations in the future and more discussion.

Thanks Helleofabore for linking the data

Even ignoring the results is shows an interesting Presentation bias.

Young = lib dem / labor
Old = Conser / Reform

Women = left political + young
Man = right political + old

Recognition
3 questions and 1 recognising a sex specific issue (rSSI)
Process
5 questions none rSSI
Access
8 +4 questions and 12 rSSI
i)
▪︎ Sport M & F
▪︎ Harm rSSI
▪︎ Changing rooms M & __
▪︎ Toilet M & __
▪︎ Rape services M & __ + rSSI*
▪︎ Changing rooms __ & F
▪︎ Toilet __ & F
ii)
▪︎ Changing rooms M & F
▪︎ Toilet M & F

  • the assumption that men dont get raped/DV andor dont have a SS service or that (other) male users would have no reason to object or TM are women when it comes to rape/DV.....

Treatments
5 questions no rSSI but age limit is not a legal adult

SailorSerena · 11/02/2025 14:55

Helleofabore · 11/02/2025 09:13

I think so.

It is a site fully of women who have the language and understanding to discuss the issues in long form. FWR is full of articulate women who I am in awe of.

However, these very aspects pose significant problems for people who don't want the dissonance of their beliefs to be pointed out. They don't want to see the contradictions in their thoughts, they don't want to have to face the discomfort that maybe they are supporting something that really is based on misinformation, philosophical theories that are without provable science as a basis..

But the more evidence that comes to public knowledge, the shakier the foundations of these beliefs are. So, what do some people do? Distract from that discordance by categorising anyone who disagrees, even slightly, as being hateful, anti trans, transphobic, bigoted... I mean, Upton had a list going that the judge wrote down yesterday. It is like a script.

Distract from that discordance by categorising anyone who disagrees, even slightly, as being hateful, anti trans, transphobic, bigoted... I mean, Upton had a list going that the judge wrote down yesterday. It is like a script.

And yet the GC are like a script too. The same words over and over. Sex is immutable, genderists, religious doctrine, ideology, overcoming socialisation to no be kind, gendered souls aren't real etc.

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