Mumsnet listed as Anti-Trans

[Hoosemover]

there a list of organisations and Mumsnet is on it. Along with the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

x.com/twisterfilm/status/1888255119449268674?s=61

I tried to catch up but tripped over this:
"the snowdrops gave a feminine touch to the table"

I mean, eh?! How are snowdrops feminine? What do floral table arrangements have to do with being a real woman

What is considered feminine or masculine varies from one culture to another and from one time period to another.

In Japan flower arranging was a standard part of samurai training.

Being transgender (whether gender dysphoria is present or not) is the only human experience that requires others to go along with a lie. The idea that some people pass as another sex is hopeful at best. Humans, especially women, are naturally adept at detecting sex, based on appearance. The notion that a person passes is more a reflection of politeness than actual success in passing. It's a dangerous time when we expect people to accept something that we know is not true. It is damaging to transgender individuals because they don't receive the necessary help and support. It's also harmful to others who must navigate the linguistic gymnastics and cognitive dissonance to avoid negative consequences. No one is born in the wrong body, and with enough support, the reasons behind these feelings can be unravelled.

So you see trans people as having a mental illness that needs to be cured?

@Princessconsuelabananahammock9 interesting you raise the comparison to racialisation.

I had a friend in high school who was born in Turkey (to Turkish parents) who liked people to think that she was Maori. I guess nowadays we'd say she tried to pass as Maori.

If she is still doing that I'd think it was sad, that it comes from a place of self-belittlement. But also basically deceitful.
Is it anti-trans, or transphobic, that I feel the same way about people who want to mislead others about their sex?
I guess it's a question about where the line of "it's none of my business" is.

There is no evidence that gender identity exists, or that gender is a quality that can be possessed by an individual.

On that basis, there exist people who believe in the religious doctrine of gender identity, but that belief demonstrates nothing about material reality so trans people exist only insofar as there exist believers.

@Princessconsuelabananahammock9 I think it's a shame that trans activism has become so dismissive and critical of the moderate / transmedicalist perspective. I know there's a lot of understandable opposition even to that from purist GCs but it's far more sensible (imo) than the current activist position that is basically self ID on steroids. I personally think there are people who experience strong sex dysphoria from a very young age and who probably do live their happiest lives via undergoing what we call medical transition. And it's not necessarily helpful to label it a mental illness, although it is, realistically, a medical condition. These people don't change sex. And the entire social phenomenon of expanded numbers, ROGD, etc, is a trend, social contagion, and so forth, with only a relatively tenuous connection to early childhood onset sex dysphoria.

They do exist, and for most they want to pass.

I don't think we should have legislated for this need

Thinking about this court case overnight and about the question that remains unanswered about why are people being demonised and vilified for not complying to using the language that fits someone else’s philosophical belief, I don’t think that genie will go back into the bottle.

I think that after yesterday, this constant plea that it is respectful to use preferred language is very clearly anything but respectful. And it never was due to that vilification of those who didn’t comply. But now? Now I think those who have feel entitled to sit in moral judgement, to declare that people are hateful, transphobic, anti-trans for rejecting the expectation to signal support for someone’s belief by using the demanded language, are going to have to understand the coercion that they have supported. Either intentionally supported or unintentionally.

And for those people who expected that others would support an identity that is not based on material reality, whether it was because they were led to believe this was something they were entitled to by doctors, therapists, support groups or just their own expectations, this will be hard to come to terms with, I am sure.

However, if someone then also thinks that not disclosing sex when it is an appropriate time to do so is the way to react to the realisation in people that they don’t have to use requested language, then I think that fits the profile of someone who vilifies others for not using the expected, no demanded, language.

And I say demanded, because if you as a person are willing to vilify and demonise others for not using the language you expect because it fits your belief, that isn’t a request at all. Not when there is punishment for not doing so.

And people cannot blame this on Upton’s statements and behaviour in court. Upton’s testimony was merely was the coalescing of what was being left fuzzy by some people who leveraged kindness.

I think that after yesterday, this constant plea that it is respectful to use preferred language is very clearly anything but respectful.

Absolutely. It's a means of control.

I hope that those who have been part of the widespread demonisation show some awareness of that, Eresh. Unfortunately, I think they will just revert to more demonisation without taking the time to really fully understand the implications.

So you see trans people as having a mental illness that needs to be cured?

However you want to frame it, if it needs corrective treatment paid for by the NHS it is some sort of disorder, no? Otherwise you are insisting that I adopt your personal idea about gendered essences/souls etc, which I most certainly do not.

I hope that those who have been part of the widespread demonisation show some awareness of that, Eresh. Unfortunately, I think they will just revert to more demonisation without taking the time to really fully understand the implications.

Agree.

Which is probably one reason Mumsnet, on the whole, being a site full of women with life experience, including that of dv, coercive control, and abuse, which are unfortunately quotidian facts of life for many if not most women, is particularly resistant.

We recognise the behaviour.

On the topic of this thread, when I consider Upton's testimony, that being trans is 'if people are sincere about how they want to move through the world'. Plus that sex is mutable and a malleable concept to be moulded to someone's personal beliefs. I am reminded that last year we heard this:

"We’re still categorising being transgender as a medical problem, which it is not.". says Dr Vassili Crispi (he/they), an academic neurosurgery trainee who sits on the British Medical Association (BMA) UK Council, and who is part of the doctors’ union’s new LGBTQ+ network.

And we are constantly told that we should be listening to trans people. But then censured and further demonised for listening to trans people. There is no biological aspect underlying what we have been told is also not a medical condition, yet requires brutal medical treatment to modify bodies to fit beliefs.

And I don't believe that we can dispute that the only commonality shared by the group of people who describe themselves as being transgender is philosophical belief.

Why then do people believe that we should be making any law or policy to deprioritise the protections for female people and children to prioritise someone's philosophical belief?

And why are those who don't believe in someone's philosophical belief being vilified and demonised?

I am sorry but I do not believe this.
Some Trans people do think they "pass" because nobody in real life is rude enough to point out they don't. Of course there are some people who maybe aren't very observant but I am not one of them.
Even during the face mask Covid era it was possible to tell, men and women are very different even in the way they stand/move etc.
Very occasionally I have not been 100% sure of someones sex but with a closer look or brief observation it became clear. Its a basic ability for humans (and especially women) to be able to identify someones correct sex and anyone who thinks that Trans people can pass to the majority of people and especially women is fooling themselves.

I think so.

It is a site fully of women who have the language and understanding to discuss the issues in long form. FWR is full of articulate women who I am in awe of.

However, these very aspects pose significant problems for people who don't want the dissonance of their beliefs to be pointed out. They don't want to see the contradictions in their thoughts, they don't want to have to face the discomfort that maybe they are supporting something that really is based on misinformation, philosophical theories that are without provable science as a basis..

But the more evidence that comes to public knowledge, the shakier the foundations of these beliefs are. So, what do some people do? Distract from that discordance by categorising anyone who disagrees, even slightly, as being hateful, anti trans, transphobic, bigoted... I mean, Upton had a list going that the judge wrote down yesterday. It is like a script.

@Princessconsuelabananahammock9

Anything that requires medical intervention is a medical issue. Since it's an individual who 'feels' they are the opposite sex/gender, this is considered a mental illness.

The reality is that people cannot change sex. Adding hormones and surgically transitioning is only temporary. As soon as these treatments stop or the necessary maintenance work to keep the changes going is discontinued, the body will revert to its sex-based genetic makeup.

We have now reached a point where stating this is seen as transphobic. We are doing the trans community no favors, and from a woman's perspective, the continued propagation of these falsehoods further damages and harms the reality that many women face and the need for sex-based services and provisions.

From what I've read here, I understand your partner is a trans man? I understand that reading this and the other posts must be incredibly difficult. However, the objective fact remains that people cannot change sex, and expecting those around you to accept this falsehood only serves to do more harm.

i actually have found that when male people with transgender identities wear a mask, it actually focuses on that section of the facial structure that even with surgery gives strong male body cues.

This thread seems to be mostly cis-gender people explaining what being transgender is and what they think about it (using their own definitions) and commenting on people’s appearance and mental health.

Then they wonder why the site is listed as anti-trans.

From experience I await another lecture on why I shouldn’t be using the word ‘cis’.

You already know why you shouldn't use the word cis (you're just being goady) and nobody is wondering anything.

We all know what "being transgender is", same as you do. We're just not lying.

Do you think that people shouldn't be allowed to have free discussions?

Searches soul. I'll live.

@Darker then what are your thoughts?

What does being transgender mean to you?

Why do you prefer to use the word cis (I assume from your post?).

Is this you 'taking the heat out' of the discussion again?

This thread has some extremely educational demonstrations of how "Irregular Verbs/Nouns" work on The Right Side of History.