is mumsnet a safe space for me?

[rexrabbit]

would you say mumsnet these days is a safe space for a non-transphobic lesbian with children to hang out?

Don't mention what millipedes can get up to. I recall someone fainting in the Bluestocking some threads back. 😉

It is quite possible that you will be ribbed for the use of "safe space". Apart from that you will be fine.

Thank you for this a very comprehensive answer. It actually makes it a bit clearer for me. It took me longer than it should have to work out that trans men started off as women and trans women started off as men, i was always scared to.ask. I was not being deliberately obtuse. I can totally understand why some people find themselves on the wrong end of someone's tongue unintentionally.

If @heyhopotato doesn't appreciate the Yougov findings, maybe anecdotes will help?

My DD is 19. She is bisexual and currently in a same-sex relationship. She has friends with trans and NB identities. She loves and respects her friends but she knows what sex they are and why it matters. She believes strongly in preserving single sex spaces where such things matter. Is that transphobic?

Mumsnet isn't transphobic or homophobic so not sure why it wouldn't be safe ?

on this forum, not real life. in real life all the people I know look down on mumsnet and boycott it for this reason in the same way they avoid x and truthsocial

I'd also like @Phthia or any of the others who have accused us of transphobia to answer me this:

How is it possible for a human being to actually change sex? Given that our biological sex is immutably set in every cell of our bodies, given that doctors cannot create a functioning, human reproductive system out of tissue from a body of the other sex - or even of the same sex, given that males and females have different bone structures, muscle and fat distribution, endocrine systems, hormones - how can a doctor make a male body have all these female characteristics, or a female body have all the male ones?

Hint - it is not possible. There is no medical or surgical treatment that can make a man into a real woman, or vice versa.

But luckily for the trans rights activists, all the things that they say make a woman, are things a man can buy - make up, hormone inflated breast tissue or silicon implants, clothes - or acquire - mannerisms, long hair.

And it is very notable that these trans women want all the fun parts of what they see as femininity, but don't want the unequal burden of childcare, housework, house admin etc, or the lower wages, poorer health care and poorer health outcomes.

I'd also like to point out that, for centuries, feminism has been arguing for the doing-away with sexist stereotypes - I thought we had won the battle that said that women don't have to perform femininity to be female - they can have short hair, no make up, STEM jobs, traditionally masculine hobbies and interests - and it does NOT make them any less a woman. Now the TRAs want to take us back to the sexist stereotypes, and want to tell kids that, if they don't conform to them, they must submit themselves to mutilating surgeries, cross sex hormones, puberty blockers (like Lupron, which was banned as a treatment for adults because of its side effects - loss of bone density, impairment of brain development etc), and accept a life as medical/surgical patients, rather than a healthy life in a correctly body with whatever likes, dislikes, characteristics they want.

Is it transphobic to be horrified at some people wanting their kids to become trans because they'd rather have a daughter than a gay son? Transing the gay away!

They pay people to answer their questions and filter out people they don't want in screening questions so not trustworthy either

Because you are in a bubble. Look at the YouGov stats quoted above. Or would you rather not have your bubble burst?

Yes unfortunately the women here often face vitriol from a group of posters who are obsessed with the idea that people they do not know anything about are "cis" regardless of how those people actually experience their gender or indeed their lack of gender. Of course that whole belief that most people here are "cis" is based on nothing more than their own prejudices about what type of people would challenge the transgender demand for cross sex privilege. And yes, those posters also do get very het up about it!

If reading anything on a message board (especially a moderated message board which bans offensive messages) makes you suicidal, then I really suggest that you need psychological help. This is not sarcasm. Resilience is a necessary skill in this world and reading other people's (frankly mainstream) opinions should not push you over the edge.

That's the badger! Thank you for saving me from having to accost random 4 year olds for answers.

on this forum, not real life. in real life all the people I know look down on mumsnet and boycott it for this reason in the same way they avoid x and truthsocial

Then you're in a little bubble of your own, plus I think you don't know the entire browsing habits of every single person you interact with in day to day life.

That's why self ID isn't popular when no doubt all your friends think it should be the law.

Because most people, outside your alleged bubble, do not believe that a man becomes a woman on his day so. They believe that sex matters in some circumstances.

*say so

You could read this. It explains YouGov's polling methodology
https://yougov.co.uk/about/panel-methodology

o how we miss their insightful input! 🙄

People who ‘look down’ and boycott Mumsnet reminds me of the ones who piled on JKR without reading what she actually said!
‘looking down’ and ‘boycotting’ because someone ‘advises’ them to??

Are many of them mums themselves?

Most of the mums I know are very well up on the difference between the sexes. Pushing a person out of you tends to have that effect.

💯

It's not just you. There was a deliberate push by activists to make definitions unclear and many people don't know -

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/08/07/clarity-matters-how-placating-lobbyists-obscures-public-understanding-of-sex-and-gender/

True. But then again I've been to some very heated choir practices...

Well at least we've established that ankylosaurs are dinosaurs. I already knew dimetrodon weren't <smug>. Still cool as fuck though.

Me too - the toxic atmosphere in one choir has put me off joining any choir for good.

Whereas I am still on MN. Says it all.

Good thing you don't have to read DM polls. You can read YouGov polls instead.

In fact ... I will deliver the results to you here so you don't even have to go to find them. Here you go:

Here is the latest YouGov figures if potato or any other readers are interested in reading them. YouGov have been tracking the results to the same questions in the UK since 2018 and added a couple of more that they now track too.

How lucky are we to have this to consider.

Here are the questions and their results over time.

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events?2018 in italics, 2022 in [brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 27 [16] 11% 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 16%
Should not be allowed 48 [61] 74% 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 26%
Don't know 25 [22] 15%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 42 [34] 27%. 2018 - 2024* this is decrease by 15%
Should not be allowed 33 [43] 56%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 23%
Don't know 25 [23] 17%. 2018 - 2024 *this is decrease by 8%

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 46 [38] 33%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 13%
Should not be allowed 30 [41] 51%. 2018 - 2024* *this is increase by 20%
Don't know 23 [21] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 47 [39] 31%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 16%
Should not be allowed 27 [36] 47%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 20%
Don't know 26 [25] 22%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 4%

No question making it clear that when a male person has or has not had surgery was asked in 2018, but here is how this too has changed since 2020:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...

Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Should be allowed 26 [25] 20%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 6%
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 62%. 2020 - 2024* *this is increase by 16%
Don't know 28 [27] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed 31 [29] 26%. 2020 - 2024* *this is decrease by 5%
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 58%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 17%
Don't know 27 [25] 16%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 11%

Here is the data behind the 2018

d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2018.pdf

2020

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2020.pdf

2022

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_TransgenderIssues_220720_final_extraXbreak_FINAL.pdf

2024

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/SexMatters_Gender_241219_ZMwbM2T.pdf

Here is the latest YouGov tracker information on whether people want gender neutral toilets or separate single sex toilets:

A new poll reveals that support for mixed-sex toilets is at its lowest level in five years.

Do you think public spaces should have separate toilets for men and women, gender neutral toilets, or both?
Separate toilets for men and women. 59%
Gender neutral toilets as well as separate toilets for men and women. 32%
Gender neutral toilets only. 5%
None of the above. 1%
Don't know. 3%

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/trackers/support-for-separate-toilets-for-men-and-women-and-gender-neutral-toilets-in-public-spaces

And Sex Matters commentary on it.
https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/support-for-gender-neutral-toilets-falls/

One of the YouGov polls referred to was commissioned by Pink News