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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

is mumsnet a safe space for me?

1000 replies

rexrabbit · 04/02/2025 21:04

would you say mumsnet these days is a safe space for a non-transphobic lesbian with children to hang out?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 09/02/2025 14:24

𝓞𝓸𝓱, 𝓽𝓱𝓪𝓷𝓴 𝔂𝓸𝓾 @𝓐𝓻𝓪𝓫𝓮𝓵𝓵𝓪𝓢𝓬𝓸𝓽𝓽

Myfluffyblanket · 09/02/2025 14:26

ArabellaScott · 09/02/2025 14:06

𝕴 𝖑𝖔𝖛𝖊 𝖆𝖓 𝖊𝖝𝖈𝖚𝖘𝖊 𝖙𝖔 𝖌𝖊𝖙 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖋𝖆𝖓𝖈𝖞 𝖋𝖔𝖓𝖙𝖘 𝖔𝖚𝖙.

Did someone say they're getting the fondant fancies out ?

Helleofabore · 09/02/2025 14:38

████ ████ ██ █████

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 09/02/2025 14:39

Helleofabore · 09/02/2025 14:38

████ ████ ██ █████

Is that morse code?

ErrolTheDragon · 09/02/2025 14:40

Helleofabore · 09/02/2025 12:58

I am sure that the dragons will not be pleased in being used for currency …

Edited

Trading in a volatile currency is foolish.
Trading in anything which can volatilise you is a whole different level of unsafeness.

Helleofabore · 09/02/2025 14:41

It is secret squirrel code. I am unsure as to how anyone can read it though.... 😂 I thought it would be magic and when you click it would expose.... but sadly this is not so.

It doesn't even show in the source view.

ErrolTheDragon · 09/02/2025 14:43

-. - .. / - .... .. ... / .. ... / - .-. ... . / -.-. - -.. .

Boiledbeetle · 09/02/2025 14:44

Helleofabore · 09/02/2025 14:41

It is secret squirrel code. I am unsure as to how anyone can read it though.... 😂 I thought it would be magic and when you click it would expose.... but sadly this is not so.

It doesn't even show in the source view.

Edited

🪲

I thought it was MNHQ's new way of censoring posts!! 😁

PurpleSparkledPixie · 09/02/2025 14:50
Electronic Arts Dragon GIF by Xbox

To the whole bigly, fancy (fondant) lot of you!!

DeanElderberry · 09/02/2025 14:53

@HaddyAbrams (Not a feminism issue FWIW)

Did you see the method someone the other day described for making scrambled eggs?

maybe not actually unsafe, but certainly inadvisable.

I am ignoring all the font related showing off.

Catiette · 09/02/2025 15:01

I've only read parts of it, but this thread feels like a breath of fresh air - just the gentle, nuanced riposte needed to the perception of language and debate as "unsafe".

This appropriation of "unsafe" to mean "comfortable / not challenging", and even the more important "not emotionally distressing", really, really worries me.

It struck home when I saw it in a primary school catering for kids with limited English. A big sign clearly using the word "safe" in this new, "progressive" sense: something like, "Kindness is important - keep our school a safe space for all". And I thought: just like that, you've made them less safe, by removing the key piece of vocabulary they need to express the concept of physical danger and risk. What may a kid with limited English say, if he's being punched in the toilets or kicked on the field, and is scared to come to school? "I don't feel safe here," of course. Except, now, there's scope for ambiguity and misinterpretation there that didn't exist before. "Safe" is no longer a clear red light that indicates severe physical threat. It's gone.

Yes, it's important we can describe emotional and mental risk - we all know "sticks and stones etc." is a load of rubbish and words can hurt, too. But we need the full range of vocabulary necessary to make these key distinctions!

We see the same issue with "woman" and "female" in the Fife case - that a court can debate whether the claimant has the right even to speak the language necessary to describing her complaint is, frankly, Orwellian.

I noticed it also came up in the Fife case on another, more subtle, level when the Respondents' barrister argued that there's no difference between "intimidated" and "scared". Really? I mean, really? Do you understand how language works?! Of course you do, given your job. Which therefore exposes what's really driving this - the Orwellian use of language to degrade thought and debate, in court and society more widely.

OK, language exists to manipulate and question, and language evolves - that's what language is. But this unashamed denial of shared meaning, and the forceful imposition of politicised newspeak in the name of what's right and good? It's authoritarian.

ETA On reflection, these shifts in language are ironic, too, in that they're driven by privilege and ignorance: the academic elite, the do-gooder educated middle classes and cossetted political class. We're very fortunate that we've reached a point in western society where some members of these demographics feel that this word is not longer needed for physical safety, and they can arrogate it to describe their political concerns. Ditto woman, and female. But this is a mark of their privilege - the underprivileged need these words (and see that anyone could too, any day, there but for the grace of... etc.)

"In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible... Thus, political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging, and sheer cloudy vagueness... Political language [is] designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable."

“Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.”

ArabellaScott · 09/02/2025 15:07

Catiette · 09/02/2025 15:01

I've only read parts of it, but this thread feels like a breath of fresh air - just the gentle, nuanced riposte needed to the perception of language and debate as "unsafe".

This appropriation of "unsafe" to mean "comfortable / not challenging", and even the more important "not emotionally distressing", really, really worries me.

It struck home when I saw it in a primary school catering for kids with limited English. A big sign clearly using the word "safe" in this new, "progressive" sense: something like, "Kindness is important - keep our school a safe space for all". And I thought: just like that, you've made them less safe, by removing the key piece of vocabulary they need to express the concept of physical danger and risk. What may a kid with limited English say, if he's being punched in the toilets or kicked on the field, and is scared to come to school? "I don't feel safe here," of course. Except, now, there's scope for ambiguity and misinterpretation there that didn't exist before. "Safe" is no longer a clear red light that indicates severe physical threat. It's gone.

Yes, it's important we can describe emotional and mental risk - we all know "sticks and stones etc." is a load of rubbish and words can hurt, too. But we need the full range of vocabulary necessary to make these key distinctions!

We see the same issue with "woman" and "female" in the Fife case - that a court can debate whether the claimant has the right even to speak the language necessary to describing her complaint is, frankly, Orwellian.

I noticed it also came up in the Fife case on another, more subtle, level when the Respondents' barrister argued that there's no difference between "intimidated" and "scared". Really? I mean, really? Do you understand how language works?! Of course you do, given your job. Which therefore exposes what's really driving this - the Orwellian use of language to degrade thought and debate, in court and society more widely.

OK, language exists to manipulate and question, and language evolves - that's what language is. But this unashamed denial of shared meaning, and the forceful imposition of politicised newspeak in the name of what's right and good? It's authoritarian.

ETA On reflection, these shifts in language are ironic, too, in that they're driven by privilege and ignorance: the academic elite, the do-gooder educated middle classes and cossetted political class. We're very fortunate that we've reached a point in western society where some members of these demographics feel that this word is not longer needed for physical safety, and they can arrogate it to describe their political concerns. Ditto woman, and female. But this is a mark of their privilege - the underprivileged need these words (and see that anyone could too, any day, there but for the grace of... etc.)

"In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible... Thus, political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging, and sheer cloudy vagueness... Political language [is] designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable."

“Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.”

Edited

An excellent point.

Being safe matters. It doesn't mean 'not being upset'.

And thanks for the great quotes. Adding the source, Orwell's 1948 essay:

www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/politics-and-the-english-language/

ArabellaScott · 09/02/2025 15:09

This bit is also very interesting:

'What is above all needed is to let the meaning choose the word, and not the other way about. In prose, the worst thing one can do with words is to surrender to them. When you think of a concrete object, you think wordlessly, and then, if you want to describe the thing you have been visualising, you probably hunt about till you find the exact words that seem to fit it. When you think of something abstract you are more inclined to use words from the start, and unless you make a conscious effort to prevent it, the existing dialect will come rushing in and do the job for you, at the expense of blurring or even changing your meaning. Probably it is better to put off using words as long as possible and get one’s meanings as clear as one can through pictures and sensations. Afterward one can choose – not simply accept – the phrases that will best cover the meaning, and then switch round and decide what impression one’s words are likely to make on another person. '

I think a lot of problems in our culture are created by putting the words before the meaning.

Catiette · 09/02/2025 15:12

Sorry - just edited the post you quoted, too, with some new thoughts. Love your quote above, too, distinguishing between concrete and abstract, and thought and expression. Fascinating.

ArabellaScott · 09/02/2025 15:16

Generally, people look to friends, family, or a therapist for 'emotional safety'. Not anonymous internet chat boards. It's a funny situation when people expect this to be provided, and even more surprising when they get angry if not offered it by others.

And of course it's women who get punished for failing to provide the requisite soothing, cooing, and cossetting to those who expect their sensitivities to be catered to, but are not willing to extend courtesy to others.

Coming on a board and calling women prejudiced is insulting. And we're expected to then be naice and kind and friendly to those people calling us bigots and prejudiced?

No, thank you.

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 09/02/2025 15:24

well OP how did you get on testing the safeness of Mumsnet?

OP: umm well I learnt that 🕷️🥛is a thing, how to sort non-dinosaurs from dinosaurs (but they were unclear if a creature with arm crests and unholy hips is a non-binary non-dino-y). They lobbed baked goods around and some of them can type

biggly words

But lots can't and some can do funny fonts.

They are clever and sharp and funny and won't be brow beaten into being kind. No one threatened me or doxxed me or called me names but they would not take feelings as facts or opinions as science so it was all rather terrifying and I left.

Oh and they have dragons

🐲

Catiette · 09/02/2025 15:25

I also find it fascinating that, a few pages into this thread at least - and this would definitely be par for the course on this site, in my experience - the only truly unpleasant ("unsafe" presumably?) language used was by those few posters arguing that the site's demonstrably unsafe! I just nipped back, and a few have been removed, but the delightful "cesspit" still remains. So we can be clear that the meaning of the word "irony" has also been irrevocably lost to the proponents of "safe-as-emotional". 😂

ArabellaScott · 09/02/2025 15:26

I think 'irony' was an early casualty in the gender-wars.

Catiette · 09/02/2025 15:26

And what @GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen said. Couldn't have put it better! 😆

Catiette · 09/02/2025 15:32

Look, I can do bigly words, too.

Here:

bigly

See?! 💪

(I mean in the newspeak, sense, of course - “Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else” - George, again. Really, I've not got a clue how to biggify and fontify, and am in awe of those who can).

NotAtMyAge · 09/02/2025 15:33

Boiledbeetle · 09/02/2025 14:20

¡¡¡ɹǝʍod ǝɥʇ ǝʌɐɥ I

😂😂😂

RedHelenB · 09/02/2025 15:35

rexrabbit · 04/02/2025 21:14

I meant safe as in feeling non marginalised or invalidated

Probably not then.

Helleofabore · 09/02/2025 15:38

Catiette · 09/02/2025 15:25

I also find it fascinating that, a few pages into this thread at least - and this would definitely be par for the course on this site, in my experience - the only truly unpleasant ("unsafe" presumably?) language used was by those few posters arguing that the site's demonstrably unsafe! I just nipped back, and a few have been removed, but the delightful "cesspit" still remains. So we can be clear that the meaning of the word "irony" has also been irrevocably lost to the proponents of "safe-as-emotional". 😂

Absolutely Catiette.

Posters come and they name call, vilify, demonise and generally expect that their own highly personalised definitions of the words transphobia, hate, kind, tolerance as well as woman / man and sex be implemented across the thread. Once you see it, you cannot miss it.

It is the same cycle that rolls through.

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 09/02/2025 15:39

Catiette · 09/02/2025 15:32

Look, I can do bigly words, too.

Here:

bigly

See?! 💪

(I mean in the newspeak, sense, of course - “Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else” - George, again. Really, I've not got a clue how to biggify and fontify, and am in awe of those who can).

Your bigly is bigly and the emperor has a lovely new suit

😉🧵👔

Catiette · 09/02/2025 15:48

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 09/02/2025 15:39

Your bigly is bigly and the emperor has a lovely new suit

😉🧵👔

Thank you! I thought it was the bestest bigly on the thread!

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