Can we talk about bisexuality?

[Pluvia]

Just that really. I'm a lesbian, one of a number seeking to rebuild new lesbian and LGB networks after our established communities and events and hang-outs and culture have been trashed by the TQIA+ brigade.

Lesbians and gay men are feeling really beleaguered. We've seen almost every sphere of gay and lesbian life infiltrated by 'queer', trans and spicy straight people all using the events and groups we've founded for their own purposes — mainly of validation. Pride has been taken over by the T. Our cafes, pubs, bars, all gone.

I think a significant number of gay and lesbian activists are finding it increasingly difficult to work out where bisexuality fits into all this. I'm in a number of different LGB groups and this issue has started to crop up in them. People who join describing themselves as bisexual and wanting to get involved in helping rebuild their local LGB communities turn out to be in long-term, stable heterosexual relationships. Some of them for 20+ years. Some bi people in such relationships want to involve their straight partners on the basis that although the partner is straight, they are in relationship with a bi person who isn't — but who, to the outside world, looks straight.

Does it matter? Well, if you're in a heterosexual relationship you're unlikely to experience the everyday (usually minor) moments that most of us who are out still encounter. Things like the need to come out regularly to people who assume that we're in straight relationships, the slight but still palpable 'othering' that sometimes comes when people realise they're talking to someone who isn't just like them. Sometimes it's much more pointed. And if we hold, say, an LGB club night, so that LGB people can associate without the straight gaze, should we allow bisexuals to bring their straight partners? Doesn't that negate the intention of the event?

Bisexual people who are living in a heterosexual relationship have the security of being undercover. They may not see it like that, of course, but they pass as straight. I'm pretty sure that one of the bi women who's involved in one of the groups I'm in is a straight woman who bases her bisexual identity on the fact that she had a relationship with a woman while at university, many years ago.

I don't know if there's a solution to this. I think lesbians and gay men are much more cautious around the dangers of self-ID and identity politics than they ever were. How are other groups handling this?

@CalamityK8 There are lots of women who have relationships with other women after being married to a man for many years.

Of course some lesbians will not be interested in being with someone for whom an adult relationship with a woman is new. If you do have a relationship with another woman there are lots of things to deal with such as the reactions of family, adult children and friends. And just like some women would not want to pursue a relationship where they were going to be a stepmother, some women will not want to pursue a relationship with a woman dealing with all of these issues for the first time.

There will be women who will be interested in pursuing a relationship though.

‘I'm pretty sure that one of the bi women who's involved in one of the groups I'm in is a straight woman who bases her bisexual identity on the fact that she had a relationship with a woman while at university, many years ago.’

I don’t understand this argument. Sexual orientation is about who you’re sexually attracted to, not who you happen to be having a relationship at that particular moment in time. If she finds men and women sexually attractive, then she’s bisexual. The fact you’re in a monogamous relationship with a person with characteristic A doesn’t mean you’re not also attracted to people with characteristic B - it just means you’re monogamous.

After all, there would have been plenty of secretly gay men and lesbian women in ‘straight’ marriages until relatively recently because of social pressures. By the above logic, does that mean they weren’t actually gay/lesbian? Or that you weren’t a lesbian until the first time you actually had sex with a woman?

Sending you love and solidarity ❤️ Thank you for sharing your story I suspect there are quite a few women with some version of your story, albeit with less trauma. I'm truly sorry for what you experienced and the decisions you made were for excellent and understandable reasons x

In my case I didn't realise I was attracted to women until I met three specific women (one of whom was after I was married). It didn't phase me, I just realised I had been attracted to more men on balance. I think I'm attracted to specific people, most of whom have been neurodivergent. The youngsters would probably tell me I'm demi and / or pansexual but I'm much too long in the tooth for all the labels

I'm lucky that my family accept my bisexuality. I don't have children, so it's not something I have had to explain in that context, which I can imagine might be a rather difficult conversation to navigate.

I think I'm attracted to specific people, most of whom have been neurodivergent.

That's interesting. I am autistic and most people I have been romantically attracted to have also been neurodivergent - in my younger days, before I was diagnosed or knew what neurodivergence was, it was just 'she has dyslexia' or 'he is obsessed with numbers'. I seem to co-exist best with other autistic people and people with ADHD, both as friends or in a partnership. There is a connection that is absent with NT people.

I actually entirely agree with you OP. I'm married to a man and I think overall I lean to men. But I had one brief liaison with a woman when I was much younger, and my attraction to women has become much stronger as I've aged. If I were to find myself no longer married, I'd pursue women, at least for a time!

However given that I'm in a heterosexual marriage, unless something changed in my life and I "put my money where my mouth is" so to speak, I'd be mortified to intrude on gay and lesbian spaces. To me, anyone who is currently in a hetero relationship and does that, is just trying to self-aggrandize.

No OP women should not bring their male partners to an lgb event. It's not fair at all.
I'd really question why anyone would think this is OK.
Re the other conversation that is happening, many many women when in their late 30s/40s+ will start dating women after breaking up from a long term relationship with a man. Personally I know of 3 women in my local area who have done this! Which is wonderful for them. It's quite common.

Agree! I also don’t get why someone in an opposite sex relationship would want to go to such events. What are you getting from it? The events are bringing people together based purely on sexuality. Surely the bisexual is just included because they can have same sex relationships too.

I'm similar and agree with you. I just don't think the fact that I might date a woman again if my marriage broke up gives me a right to intrude on lesbian spaces.

erm…he’s sexually attracted to men? i’d say that’s a fairly large commonality?

I’m curious. What if the man in the apparently heterosexual relationship with a bisexual woman was also bisexual? Would he be unwelcome for arriving in a male/female relationship or would this scenario be ok? How would the L&G community gate-keep bisexuals? Declare orientation prior to entry?

I’m Playing devils advocate a bit as I’ve had this conversation with friends before and we
ciuldnt come to any suitable conclusion for all.

Why is it a commonality?
He has not had any homophobia. He has never had sex with a man, or a relationship.

Fair point.

I guess it depends on the reason for the group maybe?

So you only get to be part of the LG(B) community if you’ve faced homophobia and had the privilege of a relationship
and sex?

what about extremely shy gay men? Those who cannot perform sexually for whatever reason? Those who have experienced acceptance from the moment they realised they were gay?

When its this complicated would the solution be women only events.

Bi peoples can have their own events.

Sorry to again use a deaf reference. Deaf people are not included in the para Olympics. They have their own Olympics along with other sporting events that they are very proud of.

Is inclusion causing division Is the feeling of support the most important thing with people who live your experience or is it something else?

@dottieautie There are lots of LGB places. The man I discussed can go to gay pubs with his wife. He can go to plenty of LGBTQ groups and events.
But he has been married for many many years. He has zero understanding of what having a same sex relationship is like.
I mean we can go down the route of thinking only self identity matters, and material reality is unimportant?

Not the poster you quoted, but:

When I first started experimenting with lesbian relationships as a teenager, the response I got from lesbians was universally negative (all the things people have posted here - just pretending, slutty, make your mind up, etc). I had several relationships with bisexual women and they were really great, but we experienced a lot of external homophobia (assaults, sexual harassment from men, etc). And this was in Brighton, fuck knows how bad it would have been anywhere else.

I met DH and although I find women more attractive than men, it is socially easier to be in a heterosexual relationship. I also knew I wanted kids, and IVF wasn’t available for lesbians in 2001. Now I have a child, and I wouldn’t want to disrupt his life by breaking up my marriage.

If my marriage ended (death or divorce) I might give a lesbian relationship another go, or I might stay single. I definitely wouldn’t date another man.

@Saschka so it was easier to be with a man?

Yep, I don’t think anyone disputes it is easier socially to be in a heterosexual relationship than in a gay relationship do they? Hence all the closeted gay men in fake marriages.

@Saschka I agree. Which is why the experience of someone in a long term opposite relationship is very different to those in same sex relationships

I wouldn’t dispute that, and I also wouldn’t have any interest in going to a lesbian event. I definitely wouldn’t take DH along!

But so does any gay virgin who hasn’t yet embarked upon a same sex relationship be they 21, 31 or 61. Do they only become part of the community once they’ve checked off your material reality boxes of having experienced homophobia, same sex intercourse and a same sex relationship?

Your example aside, I assume you feel this way about all gays and lesbians regardless of being in a hetero relationship or not, who haven’t experienced all of the above criteria?

And in your example why should he take his wife to a gay club? She doesn’t belong there any more than any other straight woman. Why can’t he attend an LGB event on his own? You claim because his lack of experience… which circles round to my opening point in this post, is a 21 year old shy virgin also not welcome
because of lack of actual homosexual experience?

GC bisexual groups exist, they just keep a low profile.

Just a few thoughts

• Did grow up hearing that bisexual doesn’t exist, despite knowing I am
• this erasure still happens even on this thread with our relationships being called “hetero” when it’s with a man or “lesbian” when it’s with a woman. NO they are all bisexual relationships.
• the post about how we need to be “out and proud” by having only same sex relationships is again, erasure, by saying you’re only out of the closet when you act like a lesbian. NO - all our relationships are bisexual ones and we ARE out the closet. You think we don’t tell our partners our sexuality? Think we hide it? Bringing a male partner to LGB is being OUT as a bisexual. Posters not liking this fact of our existence and calling it a “hetero” relationship is again erasure, and saying we should have the decency to not come to LGB events is demanding bisexuals stay in the closet.
• You don’t know the inner life of any us, how dare you assume that relationships are the same between us and men as it is for straight women and men, or between us and women as it is for two lesbians.
• Yes our experiences are different from that of lesbians, but we aren’t living life like a straight person.

What is a ‘spicy straight’ person?