Can we talk about bisexuality?

[Pluvia]

Just that really. I'm a lesbian, one of a number seeking to rebuild new lesbian and LGB networks after our established communities and events and hang-outs and culture have been trashed by the TQIA+ brigade.

Lesbians and gay men are feeling really beleaguered. We've seen almost every sphere of gay and lesbian life infiltrated by 'queer', trans and spicy straight people all using the events and groups we've founded for their own purposes — mainly of validation. Pride has been taken over by the T. Our cafes, pubs, bars, all gone.

I think a significant number of gay and lesbian activists are finding it increasingly difficult to work out where bisexuality fits into all this. I'm in a number of different LGB groups and this issue has started to crop up in them. People who join describing themselves as bisexual and wanting to get involved in helping rebuild their local LGB communities turn out to be in long-term, stable heterosexual relationships. Some of them for 20+ years. Some bi people in such relationships want to involve their straight partners on the basis that although the partner is straight, they are in relationship with a bi person who isn't — but who, to the outside world, looks straight.

Does it matter? Well, if you're in a heterosexual relationship you're unlikely to experience the everyday (usually minor) moments that most of us who are out still encounter. Things like the need to come out regularly to people who assume that we're in straight relationships, the slight but still palpable 'othering' that sometimes comes when people realise they're talking to someone who isn't just like them. Sometimes it's much more pointed. And if we hold, say, an LGB club night, so that LGB people can associate without the straight gaze, should we allow bisexuals to bring their straight partners? Doesn't that negate the intention of the event?

Bisexual people who are living in a heterosexual relationship have the security of being undercover. They may not see it like that, of course, but they pass as straight. I'm pretty sure that one of the bi women who's involved in one of the groups I'm in is a straight woman who bases her bisexual identity on the fact that she had a relationship with a woman while at university, many years ago.

I don't know if there's a solution to this. I think lesbians and gay men are much more cautious around the dangers of self-ID and identity politics than they ever were. How are other groups handling this?

It's a form of biphobia to think that a bi person who is currently in an mixed-sex relationship is out because they want to be special. We have the right to be honest about who we are.

This so one of the nastiest, most biphobic and small minded posts I’ve ever seen on mumsnet.

Being in a heterosexual relationship doesn’t change your sexuality. You are still attracted to both sexes. You’re history - your dating history and sexual history is still a mixed bag. And while bi people may pass as heterosexual while in opposite sex relationships, this ‘hidden was’ comes with issues of its own. People assume that you are straight and you can either go along with that and feel as if you are lying about yourself constantly, or correct them and be in a cycle of constantly coming out (and having people’s vision/ opinion of you change - not something that SHOULD happen in this day and age but something that does).

It sounds as if you think bi people in heterosexual relationships should just shut up and be invisible and have no say in gay rights/spaces etc? That they have no need to come together for support in common issues that they may experience?

Bi visibility is very important. Normalising bisexuality is important. Especially as an example to children/teens who are just discovering their sexuality. The reason I was so confused about my sexuality as a teen is because I didn’t know being bi was a valid option. I had no vision of what it looked like to grow up and be a bi adult. By being honest about our identity and sexuality, we can help future generations avoid this problem.

How unbelievably exclusionary of you to try and invalidate, hide and shut down a whole group of people talking and sharing their own experiences on the basis of who they have chosen to love.

It's coming across loud and clear: bisexual people experience bi phobia, bisexual people experience it from L&G and straight people, bisexual people 'have the right to be honest about who we are.'
Which confirms the idea that LG+B is not the ideal grouping as it includes different, though related, groups.

I am bisexual and in a long term heterosexual relationship. I think it’s probably just about people being sensitive to one another.

For example, people feel free to make homophobic remarks in front of me because they think I’m straight. That is pretty unpleasant to be honest. But it’s not same as getting abuse in the street when I hold hands with my OH. So if we were talking about abuse I would probably not want to take a prominent role is speaking about it in a group. But I might ask if anyone shared my experience and wanted to talk about it in a separate place/time (like how you feel if for your own safety you say nothing at the time and then feel horribly guilty!). It’s not the same but neither is it unrelated. A bit of mutual understanding and knowing when to be quiet (!) can be helpful.

That seems to confirm that the experience of being bisexual is specific and different from being homosexual, so why LGB?

Because if I want to marry a woman, I should be able to as easily as if I want to marry a man? Bis have civil rights demands identical to lesbians and gays.

It's often social spaces, not political spaces, where the differences become apparent.

By that definition, I've identified as bisexual for over 30 years - basically since I realised I wasn't a lesbian.

I mean - as far as "why would bisexual people be excluded".

If you are talking about people trying to get some kind of law passed, for example, or a group looking to get a clinic started up, surely even bisexual people in a straight relationship might feel a strong interest in that?

It's the social stuff that seems more fraught, and I suppose the question is, what is the purpose of a sexuality specific social event where it's not about dating? Is it that you might all have shared experiences of being in a same sex relationship? Is it to not feel like others are judging you? Is it to have a group that doesn't have any men, or any women, there? Is it a group that's existed for a long time and it's about established relationships - (in which case what happens when a person goes from having a same sex partner to an an opposite sex one, they can't participate any more?)

There seems to be an element of, I feel these people are"my community." And not everyone feels that equally, there are plenty of gay and lesbian people who have no interest in any of that stuff, their social identity isn't invested in the community at all. Others on the other hand see it as deeply important.

But there could easily be people who, when younger, invest a lot of themselves in being part of that community - but later end up in an opposite sex relationship. If they've mainly seen their social life and identity being around that particular group though, I am sure it would feel like a loss and rejection to suddenly be unwanted.

Have only read the first post so no doubt I'm repeating what others have said but totally agree with you OP. I'm bi but have been with a man for many years, and don't feel I need or deserve any place in your community except on the outside as an ally to my lesbian sisters.

As you so eloquently said, to all intents and purposes I'm straight and will be viewed as such, I've never been on the receiving end of homophobia and it's not my place to claim to understand this from personal experience. If I was with a woman it would be different. Very few of my friends know my sexuality because who cares? The whole "bi visibility" thing annoys me. "We" are not invisible, it's just not relevant or necessary to go through life harping on about it.

I feel strongly because I have a friend in exactly the same position as me who will not shut up about being "queer" and representing LGBTQ people at Pride and so forth and I think it's not right, it's insulting to lesbians.

I feel like the younger generation have to have a collection of labels to define themselves which they cling to through thick and thin.

I can understand why a bisexual woman or man might want to come to an LGB event. But the LGB community, or what's left of it, has been largely destroyed by the TQ+ — and the + includes an awful lot of straight people and straight couples who identify as Queer and people often referred to as Spicy Straights, ie straight people who think that identifying as LGBTQIA+ makes them more interesting than ordinary straight people. There have been a lot of straight people winging it by claiming to be bisexual and that's something that perhaps bi people need to get angry about.

We lost Pride and everything else to (mainly) straight T men and their 'feelings'. I know I'm more nervous about people basing their identities on their feelings now than I've ever been and perhaps some of that is what's bothering me here.

I am not sure what you mean, or maybe, I'm not sure what your point is.

No, you misunderstand my post (perhaps deliberately), this is about the formation of an identity.

We all know that homosexual activity was illegal for the majority of the 20th century. But the laws were around acts, not the idea of a "gay man". The concept of sexual orientation goes back to the 1800s, but then there is a further formation of an identity around sexual orientation much later.

This thread is very much about labels, and for a long time people didn't have labels for WHO they are, but WHAT they were.

I totally get this and agree as lesbian woman.

Things have changed, however I do feel the tide will change again. It seems like a popular period in time to be some form of queer and I think this will change again and thing for us will change again.

Maybe not though!

You're brave to mention it also, as I think a lot of lesbians experience it. Ifs just not widely discussed.

Even gayscenes are very very different these days.

It’s a really difficult issue. I am a gay woman and see both sides. It’s important to acknowledge bisexuality but I wouldn’t want to straight husbands/male partners of bisexual women involved in my community. (Imaginary community - I don’t really involve myself in lgbt stuff to be honest. But if I did this is how I’d feel).

Good post @LeopardSnow. I'm bisexual, I had relationship with women exclusively from my late teens to my late 20s. Although I experienced homophobia in many places, I was never rejected by my heterosexual friends. However, when I started to see a man (which was a complete mistake in many ways), I was totally disowned by my lesbian friends and ended up isolated, which has put me off ever being in "the community" again, although I'm not in a relationship with anyone.

Many studies show that bisexual people have worse mental health and higher rates of substance misuse than heterosexuals or people who are exclusively lesbian or gay, which isn't surprising as we struggle to fit in anywhere.

I also agree that straight partners shouldn't be coming along to LGB things, and there is clearly a wide spectrum of what being bisexual means, but I do know quite a few lesbians who have bisexual partners, so where does that leave them?

This as well, is the sensible approach. Thank you 😊 💓

It shouldn't matter really. People shouldn't be isolating anyone.

When I was in my 20s, I had a male friend who was my best friend and rock climbing buddy. Some of the lesbians in my town spread rumours I was in a relationship with him and I got shunned a little by wider scene, because of this. Which is crazy.

I will add as well that a lot lot of my personal history is lesbian history, but I have nobody really to talk to about this anymore who understands it, so a big bit, 10 years, of my adult life is missing.

As my message above may try to explain, and it's difficult to explain in text form.

There has been a misunderstanding, I am not writing off a history of bigotry, but discussing the formation of cultural identities around sexual orientations.

And your thread is very much about people wanting to maintain these cultural identities regardless of their current relationship status.

I've seen the bigotry first-hand and TBH I don't associate with these cultural identities and labels, but I understand that is WHAT I am, not WHO I am. (If that makes any sense).

You were saying that people 'in the past' were less ready to identify as bisexual, I was giving my own example of having done this for many years; though obviously you didn't specify how far into the past you meant.

Maybe what you are thinking about are questions about what people are, vs what they do.

This relates pretty closely to the issue of identification. Is what makes someone a member of "x" community what they think, or what they do?

It's an old issue, for example you can see it comes up among Christians a lot in terms of questions around baptism, whether you are"born" Catholic, faith vs actions. The answer there is always, both, but where you draw the lines are tricky, and I suspect that is the case with many of these questions around what you think and what you do.

It always seems to me that the rise of identity politics comes first out of certain relationships that are actually material. Even feminism, IMO, because as much about identity as about a material condition, and a lot of bad feminist activism comes out of that way of thinking. And male vs female is probably about the most stable material human difference we have. It has also then been applied to conditions that are less objective, like race and sexuality, and finally even gender identity which seems to be totally abstract.

My own view is that the narrative around sexuality has been pretty strongly pushed for the past 35 years or so in the direction of seeing it as very objective, inherent, unchanging, and biologically determined. A lot of people accept that as a truism, and if it were true, it would suggest that it could be the stable basis for identity. But I would question that - it may well be true for some proportion of people, but I don't think it really explains all the experiences people have or the historical records for that matter - there seems to be in practice a lot of things that affect people's experiences of their sexuality and many people find it changes over time in various ways.

If that's true, it is going to make it a lot harder to define a community based mainly on people's feelings about what they are.

As an L, this thread makes me so sad for all the times we all stood side by side and fought hard for our collective rights, freedoms, and to change social perceptions of all three groups. By the same logic from this thread, why would L's and G's socialise together at all or have a group for both? I have nothing in common with a gay man at all. My lived experience is totally different, my rights and cultural capital is different. My personal safety is different. The issues that affect me are different.
I think we all stand together or separately, but not "L+G" and "B". This sort of divisive nonsense belongs in the past.

I was thinking of when I was growing up, and earlier.

What you identified as doesn't tell us much about whether people were or were not less inclined to identify as bisexual in the past, though. Sure, there were people in the 70s who thought of themselves as bisexual, that's not really news.

It takes many others longer to accept themselves, and many will end up with men, more if they feel excluded from the LGB world.

It took until I was 26 to accept that maybe it was okay to be interested in women too and I still feel some degree of self hatred about it now - because that’s how being part of a hated minority affects you - how much harder it is if that minority also excludes you.

Have you ever thought about having some therapy to help you with that self-hatred/ internalised homophobia? I know it's difficult to find a genuinely lesbian/ woman-friendly therapist but that might make things easier for you in the long run.

Please don't start blaming lesbians or gay people for not being kind to you and making you feel guilt or excluding you if you enter lesbian/ lgb spaces carrying that internalised homophobia. It seeps out.

We're responsible for our own decisions and our own feelings. Telling lesbians, already having to deal with our 'lesser', 'deviant' status in society that we have to be nice and inclusive to all women or we'll make them feel excluded and unhappy seems.... oppressive, coercive...neither is quite right. You make your decisions based on what seems right for you at a given time: you can't expect everyone else, all with their own shit to deal with, to change to accommodate you.

The more this goes on, the more I hear/ see echoes of GI arguments and feel the pressure to be inclusive and kind and try to accommodate everyone. It's really uncomfortable.

50 years ago is too recent, but it's absolutely true that the idea of a gay or lesbian person as an identity, as a type of person, is historically relatively recent. Historically it' also very unusual, and some of the most similar examples are some of the third sex categories for gay men that existed in some cultures.

Never heard of Sappho, I take it.

So how have you managed the tension in the groups you're involved in? Or is there no tension at all?