Can we talk about bisexuality?

[Pluvia]

Just that really. I'm a lesbian, one of a number seeking to rebuild new lesbian and LGB networks after our established communities and events and hang-outs and culture have been trashed by the TQIA+ brigade.

Lesbians and gay men are feeling really beleaguered. We've seen almost every sphere of gay and lesbian life infiltrated by 'queer', trans and spicy straight people all using the events and groups we've founded for their own purposes — mainly of validation. Pride has been taken over by the T. Our cafes, pubs, bars, all gone.

I think a significant number of gay and lesbian activists are finding it increasingly difficult to work out where bisexuality fits into all this. I'm in a number of different LGB groups and this issue has started to crop up in them. People who join describing themselves as bisexual and wanting to get involved in helping rebuild their local LGB communities turn out to be in long-term, stable heterosexual relationships. Some of them for 20+ years. Some bi people in such relationships want to involve their straight partners on the basis that although the partner is straight, they are in relationship with a bi person who isn't — but who, to the outside world, looks straight.

Does it matter? Well, if you're in a heterosexual relationship you're unlikely to experience the everyday (usually minor) moments that most of us who are out still encounter. Things like the need to come out regularly to people who assume that we're in straight relationships, the slight but still palpable 'othering' that sometimes comes when people realise they're talking to someone who isn't just like them. Sometimes it's much more pointed. And if we hold, say, an LGB club night, so that LGB people can associate without the straight gaze, should we allow bisexuals to bring their straight partners? Doesn't that negate the intention of the event?

Bisexual people who are living in a heterosexual relationship have the security of being undercover. They may not see it like that, of course, but they pass as straight. I'm pretty sure that one of the bi women who's involved in one of the groups I'm in is a straight woman who bases her bisexual identity on the fact that she had a relationship with a woman while at university, many years ago.

I don't know if there's a solution to this. I think lesbians and gay men are much more cautious around the dangers of self-ID and identity politics than they ever were. How are other groups handling this?

@LeopardSnow I agree that lesbians experience different levels of discrimination depending on background, both now and in the past.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

Thank you. Just back from a party and having a cup of tea before bed. This is a really helpful way of looking at the issue.

This is, once again, the identity vs sexuality issue.
No lesbian space will reject you ( a female) , looking to meet, socialise and shag other females if you are genuine.

You know this. Why are you pretending otherwise.

If you are in a committed long term relationship with a man, and not open to a relationship, you can't go.

Well, you can. But not legitimately, and not with him.

He assumes you are poly, persisting when you have told him that's not the case ?
I don't think I would tolerate that from a partner.
Perhaps they're not 'the one'

Though he has a point. Bisexuality is about sexual orientation , which isn't (in and of itself) incompatible with monogamy, but it is if you act on it.

Schrodingers lesbian.
I'm pretty sure lesbian spaces are sick to the back teeth of that too.

So which is it?

Expecting to be welcomed in to a lesbian space with your male partner in tow, because you snogged a girl at uni, is very different from being single and having a male ex.

Bi women dont 'face' anything.

Stop appropriating lesbian oppression .
It pisses me off to a ridiculous degree.

.

I never mentioned taking a man into a lesbian or LGB space and wouldn't do that.

Bi women do face a set of oppressions that are distinct from that of lesbians. I have already acknowledged that upthread, when I said:

"I'm coming around to the idea that bi women need spaces just for bi women, explicitly stated as such, because lesbians never face this crap that we face. By extension, lesbians should have the right to their own spaces just for them and explicitly stated as such, because they face crap that we don't."

I am not appropriating lesbian oppression. If you are going to attack me, do so for something I have done, not something that you've made up.

I go back to my original comment that it depends on the purpose of a space. Gay pubs you are welcome with your male partner if you want. LGBQ groups, you are welcome whether you have a female or male partner. LBQT groups you will be welcome if you have a female or male partner. LB groups if you have a female partner you are welcome, if you have a male partner you are going to carry on living with, then it depends. Some groups will welcome you, some will not. Lesbian groups there are incredibly few, and you obviously are not welcome at those.
Nearly all groups and venues are LGBTQ or LBTQ these days. So you are welcome at most. And if they are groups aimed at younger women, there will be at least a few women with male partners.
Lesbian only groups tend to be more political even if only in a small way. And there are vanishingly few. LB groups are more likely to be full of lesbians and bi women who are either single or with a female partner.

@Pluvia does it help to think of the similar conversations that have been had in the Women's Liberation movement? In terms of separatist feminism - the difference between radical Lesbian separatist feminism, and radical separatist feminism. What it means to be a woman who centres women - can that include women who have intimate relationships with men? Whose most important relationship is with a man?

I can't speak to the situation for women who aren't straight, but as a straight woman who has been involved with (what's left of) women's lib, including separatist radical feminism (peripherally), it does seem to me that Lesbian separatism and Lesbian feminism have a role to play and it's important that there are separate spaces - even just conceptual spaces - for holding and nurturing Lesbian feminism.

I was sexually abused as a child and it can be easy to forget what it was like forty years ago - the level of denial (of its occurance, of the harm it causes, of the adult's full responsibility, all of that and it often comes up on these boards so I know people here know what I'm talking about) - I believe that it took Lesbian separatism in order to step away from the male gaze, from the patriarchal way of seeing girls and women, to really let female desire emerge, and female healing, and female love. I don't think straight women could have done it on our own because I don't think we could get far enough from the poison, from the colonisation, from the brain fog, to see and to patiently let male-free-womanhood emerge - with its full knowledge of the evil that child sexual abuse is, knowledge that has now been shared with the whole of society.
On the other hand, I think separatist organisations and communes and all often took themselves way too seriously, purity spirals galore, exlusionaryness for its own sake, and it was important to have less categorical organising, bell hooks' Feminism If For Everyone comes to mind as a counterpoint.
I think the balance is needed. I even think there's balance needed between groups that are for all women and groups that are explicitly feminist. Germaine Greer said that in the 70s, Kellie Jane Keen is doing that now.
Sorry this is a long post, I hope it's not too OT.

The thread is about attending LGB events.
I guess it doesnt matter if its LGB introduction to accounting , but I think it's nearly always dating oriented.
My point is that if you are bi and in a monogamous relationship with a man, you currently don't qualify.
Whether you take them to the event or not.

As people have said already , some forced teaming going on.

Lesbian spaces are for women attracted to women.
It isn't discrimination to exclude women who are attracted to women, but currently In a monogamous relationship with a man, so not romantically, emotionally or sexually available (I include myself in this group )

I suggested you're oppression mining because of the 'my man thinks I'm poly' comment.
Seems like more if a commitment issue than homophobia.

I'd say you should keep out of lesbian spaces until you dump him, unless you are infact poly and looking to bring in another woman to the relationship (and he's right)
Still nothing to do with lesbians who aren't attracted to men (and a massive issue for them being put in that position as I'm sure you can see )
The B in Lgb isn't for when you are determined to play hide the sausage, unless you are open about wanting a polygamous relationship

I suspect there's a different space for that.

So whichever way you look at it, I just can't see how lesbian only spaces resolves to poor bisexual us.

Sorry Pluvia, that wasn't a response to you, that was supposed to be addressed to a previous poster asserting her right to be every bit as oppressed as lesbians because her boyfriend makes assumptions about her sexuality.

Hello!! I'm very late to this conversation and I haven't read past the first page.

I'll articulate my thoughts and then carry on reading the rest of the thread.

I'm a bisexual woman and I agree that it can feel messy / awkward trying to figure out where bisexuality fits in, since it overlaps with both heterosexuality and homosexuality.

There are complex dynamics and issues that arise precisely because of the blurry nature of bisexuality and the relationships we find ourselves in.

On the other hand, it doesn't necessarily have to be very complicated or fraught with difficulty.

Gender Identity ideology impacts and erases same-sex attraction. Everyone in the 'GC' / 'sex realist' camp, or whatever label you want to use, understands this, including heterosexual people.

From a campaigning perspective, lesbians, gay men and bisexual people have common cause - since we all innately understand and experience same-sex attraction. (Although, understandably, bi people won't experience or necessarily relate to exclusive same-sex attraction in the way that lesbians and gay men do.)

This is why I think LGB Alliance is important and plays a vital role in being able to bring together all three groups to protect and advocate for our sexual orientations (LG and B). It sets a good example for younger generations to see a distinct organisation that sits apart from all the TQ+ identities.

However, beyond that broad alliance, I don't think it's unreasonable to honestly state that those three groups may not have much in common at times, and may encounter fundamental disagreements on certain issues.

I think it's totally fine to have separate social and support groups for lesbians, gay men and bisexuals in addition to the broad church as facilitated by LGB Alliance.
I would go one step further and say that while I would be happy to see a bisexual-only group, I also want separate groups for bisexual women and bisexual men - in the same way that while lesbians and gay men might come together to advocate for same-sex orientation, they may strongly prefer to have their own separate social groups as their experiences may differ on the basis of being female / male.

The difficulty is compounded by several factors.

1. LG and B are already a minority in the general population, so it's a challenge seeking each other out.
2. Any existing social groups and spaces have been colonised by TQ+ nonsense and gender identity ideology.
3. We have to re-create these spaces and groups again from scratch, and build up connections and numbers.
4. There are a number of lesbian and gay groups being established now, which is great news, but as yet no real presence of bi groups.

Which leads to all kinds of teething problems as @Pluvia described.

All this to say, that I sympathise and understand the concerns, questions and conflicts coming from the LG side and also feel the frustration, sense of displacement and touchiness coming from the B side.

I am trying to bridge this gap by running a social and support group for 'GC' bisexual women. It's important, in my view, for bisexual women to have a space where they feel they can be open about their experiences and relationships without worrying about not fitting in or feeling that they have to hide a part of themselves or that they might be judged negatively etc.

If you are a bisexual woman who has joined a local LGB Alliance group, please ask your group coordinator to get in touch with the Edinburgh group if you would like to join an online social & support space for bi women. 😊

I'm also a lesbian, I don't attend events or go to LGBT spaces because I'm not one for busy noisy places.

I don't have any issue with Pride Parades.. I feel anyone can go if they so wish. When it comes to other spaces I feel somewhat differently. Clubs, bars, groups and the like - I feel that a straight Partner should stay away out of consideration for the lesbian, gay and bisexual people who are attending. I certainly wouldn't exclude a bisexual person from any space simply because they are in an opposite sex relationship no matter how long they've been together - they will always be bisexual and may well have a same sex relationship in the future. Support and keeping up with what's happening in the world that relates to our health and our safety is important, I feel.

There is a certain irony, reflective of some of the attitudes on this thread, in a bisexual woman being silenced on a thread called 'Can we talk about bisexuality'!

There is one that exists now for bisexual women. 😊

they will always be bisexual and may well have a same sex relationship in the future.

100% and this is what's in danger of being forgotten. Your bisexuality doesn't desert you when you are in an opposite sex relationship. I would struggle to believe that lesbians in a relationship only ever think sexually about their current partner, never feel attracted to another woman, never remember exes with some fondness, even though they wouldn't dream of being unfaithful.

As I mentioned earlier, and sorry if it sounds dramatic, it's a source of despair to me sometimes that I can't be with a woman at the same time as being with a man. There might be some bisexuals who feel complete fulfilment with whichever orientation they are living with long-term, but I'm not one of them - there will always be something missing in a monogamous relationship. That's why I have always been open with partners about my sexuality; it helps to be able to talk about it and not to have to be in denial about part of myself.

Perhaps I should be more 'out and proud' in settings such as work, but I don't want to be seen as an attention-seeking bore in situations where it's not relevant. As a matter of fact, I did join the 'LBGTQ+' group as a 'member' rather than an 'ally' but I doubt anyone noticed 😃 and I'm not very active in the group because it tends to centre things that are of no interest to me, such as drag.

This. Totally.

Why did I go to LGB groups when I was in a monogamous relationship with a man? Because I needed a space for my sexuality, where I wasn’t assumed to be straight. It’s bloody lonely and I wanted some friends who understood I had something missing in my life- and always will do.

Why do I still go, now I’m in a monogamous relationship with a woman? Exactly the same reasons.

I haven’t changed, my reasons haven’t changed-yet some people are saying I wouldn’t be welcome before but am now.

The different way the world views me and treats me when I’m in a relationship with a man vs a woman has been a bit of head-fuck. I’d naively assumed that was a hetero-normative problem. It’s sad to see it’s just as bad on the lesbian side too.

If you aren’t willing to embrace all the complexities of bisexuality then take the B out of the name of your group. For me, going to a space like that was a massive step towards a same sex relationship. I’m glad I met more open minded women than some on this thread.

I would be interested in a GC bisexual women's group @TheColourOutOfSpace. There is no LGB alliance group near me, and in fact based on my previous experience of being rejected by the lesbian community I probably wouldn't have joined anyway as I would've assumed I wouldn't be welcome, but maybe things have changed. I did identify as a lesbian for the first 10 years of my adult life, and I'm not in a relationship with anyone now. The rejection by my former lesbian friends and the wider community is as much a part, maybe more, of being wary about a relationship with a woman as it being "easier" to have a heterosexual relationship as @selffellatingouroborosofhate also highlights up thread.

I struck me hard, when there was a big push, maybe a year ago, for supposed protection of asexual as a sexuality. I found myself wondering, why does anyone need protection for something invisible.

Exactly the same applies to bisexual people in heterosexual relationships.

The reason gay and lesbian people need protection in law and elsewhere is because they deserve to be openly in a same sex relationship. It’s something you cannot hide if you want to live a normal life where you go out with your partner or spouse, like heterosexual couples do.

So if you are socializing with other gay people, or lesbian people, because you enjoy being with others who are also living through that, then it makes sense to only have those currently in homosexual relationships involved.

If you want to get together with others who more broadly identify as “being other than heterosexual” because you value that, perhaps because you feel they have some understanding of homosexuality that heterosexual people can’t understand, then fair enough.

But I think both are reasonable and you should be able to arrange meetings for either without others getting offended. The problem now is that the perpetually offended have the upper hand and demand entrance everywhere, and they have been backed by all kinds of institutions that should have been protecting gay and lesbian people as well.

It’s a mess.

I don't have have any insight into how people are doing it nowadays but just thinking back into my distant past as heterosexual partner of bisexual man... Where I lived in the late 80s & 90s (not London!) there was a bi-specific group and bisexuals organised themslves separately. There were bi meetings, support groups, activism and socials. It wasn't just about finding partners though there was plenty of that going on. Access was all self identified and given the range of bisexuality it couldn't really have worked any other way. The bi group met in the local LG centre (later LGB centre), they organised for themselves, support groups, and also did activism along with L and G groups, campaigns against Section 28, demos, buses to Pride marches, etc.

As a heterosexual partner I didn't go along to bi meetings or events unless they were "bi + allies" or "partners of bisexual support" meetings. I did once go with them to a gay club where I felt like a pork chop at a barmitzvah.

As far as I was concerned DP was a bisexual man in a heterosexual relationship. Heterosexual relationships are privileged over same-sex ones and that is one of the reasons I wanted gay marriage and gay equality so I could have confidence my DP was with me for my sake not for the sake of safety or privelege. However naive that may sound now.

Same as, I went to women's events but not to specifically lesbian or bi women's events. As a heterosexual partner I didn't expect to be included in everything LG or B, why should I.

From my understanding of these spaces as a bi woman with a lot of lesbian friends, the vast majority of lesbians are more than happy to include bi women in events.
However, what they don't like is the spicy straights and there's a LOT of that. I have no problem with straight couples wanting to spice up their sex life with a third but that third needs to be fully interested. It's not appropriate to use lesbian spaces for that.
I've come across so many 'bi' women on dating apps who aren't interested in relationships with women but are openly about looking for sex where 'my husband will just watch'.
A lot of lesbians have had to deal with that nonsense. I don't blame them for being wary.

I have no problem with straight couples wanting to spice up their sex life with a third

Ugh, I have a lot of problems with that. That was one of the reasons we needed support groups for partners. To separate "my partner is bisexual" from "my partner is polyamorous" from "my relationship is fucked".

Wow, this thread is something else!
still feeling from reading @MoreAgreeableMyArse ‘bi women don’t ‘face’ anything’
the hostility on here towards bi women such as myself is shocking.
i came in here to support LGB spaces but am now also agreeing that perhaps bi women need their own space where we don’t face ignorance such as the comments above.

i have had serious relationships with both males and females, and am married to a male, very long term.
im very happy with my DP, and yet I also have the gap, the ‘constant craving’ of not being with a woman.
i would like to meet others who understand this, and who also appreciate that we do ‘face’ stuff - not least the blatant hostility of that type of comment!

If it was a bi women at a LB sports club, knitting group or similar i would assume she just wanted to make friends.

Why does one need LB knitting clubs? If I wanted to go to a knitting club, I want people who can show me how to use a cable needle or knit a lace shawl or something. My L cousin refused to join a local LGB gardening club, because she wasn't the allotment for her vegetables not her sexuality. It isn't relevant there, or shouldn't be, what anyone's sexuality is. I haven't asked if this is something she thinks about only now she's older, or if she always thought it back in her 2nd wave, politically active youth. (She's still politically activein retirement, to be fair.)

I can understand single sex sports clubs, where it's about physical difference, but that's single sex, not single sexuality.

I had a very good night out last night and I'm not at my best today, to put it mildly, but I've tried to read through the opinions here. Lots of food for thought.

I'm surprised to realise that people are basing their self-definitions on their sexual fantasies. I shouldn't be, because the whole toxic gender identity disaster is based on fantasy and that's why lesbians and gay men are having their spaces invaded by men who identify as women and women as men. But even so, I am.

I've also been sent reeling back through some of my past 'lesbian' encounters and the number of women trying to find a relationship that matches their fantasy-based expectations of what a lesbian relationship should be. Which too often ends badly because lesbians are real and fantasies aren't. Most lesbians will have encountered women at lesbian-only events who say they are lesbians and women-focussed, yet talk constantly about their husbands. I'm plunged back to one particularly awful night when I was fairly newly out on the scene and had been chatted up by an older woman at a lesbian-only venue. We went to her place and after we'd had what seemed to me like pretty good sex, she sat in bed crying about divorcing her ex-husband and asking me whether I thought she'd make a mistake.

A previous poster posted this, and right now it resonates with me more than anything else here:

The question is, what are these groups for? If they're little identify clubs that meet to discuss how attractive this or that person is, then sure, welcome people like me. But of course, what people really need is a group to help them navigate a life lived with same sex relationships: a space free from your relationships being politicised, sexualised or othered, a place of support and activism, somewhere to meet other people who have the same experiences, somewhere to meet romantic partners. And I genuinely don't think there's much point in opening these spaces up to people who don't live life in a way that involves same sex relationships.

That's what the groups I've been involved in have sought/ seek to offer. It seems to me, from what I've learned here, that bisexual people need their own groups/ events/ lobbyists/ spokespeople/ movement, because if they leave it to the L + G to do it for them (L+G form the large majority of LGB Alliance members and organise the majority of social events etc) they are unlikely to get what they need or want. That's not being biphobic. It's about me, a lesbian, saying that I acknowledge that we are different and need different things.

Yes some men in relationships do actually harrass their bisexual partners for Threesomes etc. Again, its not rare. It's much harder to leave once you have kids (for me, he didn't start pestering me until AFTER we had a child, if I'd known my DC probably wouldn't exist. Hindsight is 20/20). I eventually did leave but it took a long time because I didn't want to break up the family unit. I'm not poly, I never have been. Hence why we're not together anymore but that relationship formed a large part of my adulthood so far. It's not easy to leave abusive relationships, particularly without support.

I've never been to a gay bar when in a relationship with a man.

Being in a straight relationship doesn't make me straight. Being bi in a straight relationship can come with it's own set of challenges due to stereotypes. It doesn't mean that I don't want to connect with others in the community and be accepted for me. Am I less deserving of support if needed by the community just because I'm bi? Regardless of relationship status. I'm not asking to be accepted into lesbian only spaces, I'm asking to feel welcome in spaces where bi women ARE supposedly welcome. I'm asking to not be treated with visible disgust as soon as I say I'm bi.

Currently the only way I'm accepted as a Bi woman is if I don't talk about it, and that's wrong.

I'm plunged back to one particularly awful night when I was fairly newly out on the scene and had been chatted up by an older woman at a lesbian-only venue. We went to her place and after we'd had what seemed to me like pretty good sex, she sat in bed crying about divorcing her ex-husband and asking me whether I thought she'd make a mistake.

That would probably have been just as awful if she'd been crying about her ex-wife, though.