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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Important article by Lionel Shriver

217 replies

FarriersGirl · 30/12/2024 07:42

Leading article in the Times today by Lionel Shriver. She has long been a critic of woke but really doesn't pull any punches. In particular she highlights the fact that far from being progressive the era of woke has been the opposite.

www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/ditching-woke-brain-rot-transgender-pronouns-58g8dpxnp

OP posts:
ScholesPanda · 04/01/2025 01:13

TempestTost · 04/01/2025 00:17

I think it's always the weight of many instances, it's not the particular fish finger mother.

I would even say that most people don't think there needs to be some exact representation of the public's demographics, people understand that advertisers want to represent differernt kinds of customers. Or some items may be marketed to specific groups because those are the customers.

It's when it seems very far out of balance overall that people think something is being pushed, whether they believe that to be some kind of comment about white people being uncool, or virtue signalling, or something else. When it's blatant enough that you start to notice it's really out of step with the reality around you, you have to wonder why.

I'd add to that, most people don't respond well to moral lectures from corporations.

I have wondered at times, given how out of skewed representation is with actors, not just in advertising but in the theater, if it is harder for young European actors to get started compared to non-white actors. From anecdotes I've heard from the few people I know who work in that area I suspect that it is a disadvantage.

Hard agree with your first paragraph, I wouldn't claim to have been manning the barricades demanding more diverse actors in adverts but now it has happened I can't say I'm that fussed either.

I'd agree I don't want moral lectures from corporations.

On your last point, do you feel that historically it was probably harder for non-white actors to get jobs? And some of the pendulum swinging is a reaction to that? I don't like the idea that white actors are turned down on the colour of their skin, but I don't like the idea that some sort of quota system means non-white actors are denied jobs either. As I said, I'm very unbothered by the skin colour of the actor who advertises my fish fingers.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/01/2025 01:19

I really dislike Lionel Shriver.

I did do a guilty lol at "the word "retarded" is enjoying a comeback" though.

TempestTost · 04/01/2025 02:33

ScholesPanda · 04/01/2025 01:13

Hard agree with your first paragraph, I wouldn't claim to have been manning the barricades demanding more diverse actors in adverts but now it has happened I can't say I'm that fussed either.

I'd agree I don't want moral lectures from corporations.

On your last point, do you feel that historically it was probably harder for non-white actors to get jobs? And some of the pendulum swinging is a reaction to that? I don't like the idea that white actors are turned down on the colour of their skin, but I don't like the idea that some sort of quota system means non-white actors are denied jobs either. As I said, I'm very unbothered by the skin colour of the actor who advertises my fish fingers.

Historically, yes, I do think so, although realistically the period where there were a fair number of non-white actors looking for parts only started in the mid 20th century. Before that, in a lot of cases there wouldn't have been actors available to play the few parts that were intended to depict people from outside of Europe.

But once you get into the 1960s and through the 70s I certainly think there were a lot more actors who struggled because they just weren't what the people casting wanted because they were narrow in their thinking. Once you get to the 80s it seems to me that things began to open up, but it still took time.

I would say there is a pendulum swing element, people seem to have a tendency to think - of a diverse cast is good, so more is better. That type of thing usually corrects itself IMO.

What I really dislike is the tendency for some to say, well, white actors had their chance and others had a hard time, so it doesn't matter if George here is being treated unfairly now, somehow that compensates for the fact that white males had an advantage before. Unfairness in the present does not, whatever people like Kendi say, balance out unfairness in the past.

Grammarnut · 04/01/2025 10:38

Abhannmor · 03/01/2025 22:42

Shriver was implying the Good Friday Agreement was incompatible with Brexit I think. It's hard to pick the bones from such an insulting diatribe.

Yes, I agree. Afaik the GFA is not affected by Brexit (since the EU is not a party, only an observer, to it), but the EU wants to make use of it to cause aggro.

Grammarnut · 04/01/2025 11:02

Taytoface · 03/01/2025 13:22

Do you think anything advertised at you has to feature people of the same race as you?? Would you not shop in JL because they feature black people in their adverts?

If she had said this is the 4th year in a row JL Christmas adverts have featured black and brown people when this is less than 25% of the UK population, she may have had a point. But she didn't, she referenced one specific advert, featuring a black family and said it looked like it had been made in Nigeria. This is blatantly racist.

She celebrated the return of the word retarded, so often used as a slur against disabled people. No context here at all. Just pure disablism.

As the pendulum swings back, we can't lose sight of what is just plain wrong. What she wrote was racist and bigoted.

I have only read the article on this thread and don't often read LS, and no, I don't bother about the ethnic origins of people in adverts and it doesn't influence where I shop. But in a country 86% white it's not exactly aiming at the target demographic to only have non-white people in an advert - a mix is surely best? And it's not racist to point out that only using non-white people is a bit racist, either (just as vice versa).

DrBlackbird · 04/01/2025 11:36

This may have already been posted, but it’s now clear where that article is coming from… she has a novel coming out about future censorship. In essence, it’s promotional material.

oxfordliteraryfestival.org/literature-events/2025/march-30/mania-what-if-calling-someone-stupid-was-illegal

RoyalCorgi · 04/01/2025 12:07

DrBlackbird · 04/01/2025 11:36

This may have already been posted, but it’s now clear where that article is coming from… she has a novel coming out about future censorship. In essence, it’s promotional material.

oxfordliteraryfestival.org/literature-events/2025/march-30/mania-what-if-calling-someone-stupid-was-illegal

The novel was published eight months ago. You can't really accuse her of writing an article to promote the novel - much more the case that the novel reflects the themes she's already preoccupied with in her non-fiction writing.

Darknessandquiet · 04/01/2025 13:21

Grammarnut · 03/01/2025 14:25

Clearly a wrong focus by LS. Those using the Republic of Ireland were France and Germany, in order to impede Brexit. The French premier, who rules places like Reunion, which are so far from France they are not in the same time zone, implied that NI was not the same country as the UK (the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) which is legally a lie.

Ireland (ROI) was very concerned about Brexit’s impact on the GFA. A hard border, which is what was being discussed and pushed for for a long time, could have been disastrous for the peace process.
The UK government seemed to completely forget, or just not care, about its obligations as a signatory of the GFA.

I hate it when prople speak about Ireland as if Irish people have no minds of their own. ‘Those using the Republic of Ireland…’ and so on.
Irish people were extremely worried about Brexit and with very good reason.

LS is unionist but denies being loyalist @Abhannmor. She has said she has a collection of paramilitary mugs from both sides and it was accidental (on her part at least) that the UFF mug ended up in the photo. She had given the journalist tea and wasn’t aware of the mug being in the photo she says.

Mila6464 · 04/01/2025 13:51

TempestTost · 31/12/2024 22:27

For example, just today while helping my son look for jobs, we saw the hospital has a position for a cleaner open. However, you have to "identify as black/African descent." Which is to say, people of European or Asian descent are not welcome to apply.

Yes, of course, the blacks and Africans want to clean hospitals. I don't believe this for one minute.

Mila6464 · 04/01/2025 13:57

TempestTost · 01/01/2025 03:36

This was just a supreme court case in the US, institutions like Harvard were weighting applications by race. So the SAT scores required to get in were differerntiated significantly depending on what your race was. If they went just by SAT scores, the campus would have been more than 40% Asian.

Basically, in order to get a "balanced" racial profile for students, Asians have to score well above the white students, who in turn need to score above black and Hispanic students.

Asian students, unsurprisingly, objected to this.

1/3 of students in ivy league universities are 'legacy' students i.e. the offspring of past students and are overwhelmingly white. why don't the Asians get upset about that instead of picking on an oppressed minority? are they pandering to white people to keep their place as the 'model' minority?

Mila6464 · 04/01/2025 14:00

CoteDAzur · 01/01/2025 11:46

"picking the applicant from the least represented group where a number of equally well qualified applicants could do the job equally well... Lionel Shriver's examples of this are from the US, and we have to be careful not to import ill-fitting arguments against policies that are in force in the US but not on this side of the Atlantic"

The situation in the UK isn't better and it's not about choosing between "equally well qualified" [sic] candidates.

Do you have a kid in a UK university? I do. When applying for any oppportunity, be it summer internship or a prestigious research project, application forms ask if kids are an ethnic minority, gay, trans, or first in their family to go to university. Those get the few slots available. If you are white, straight, from an educated family, you have no chance of getting a place.

This is in the UK, in 2024.

but i bet if you saw the line up of chosen candidates, there would be one ethnic minority candidate, one trans candidate etc but the rest would be middle class white students from 'educated' backgrounds.

DeanElderberry · 04/01/2025 14:05

LS is unionist but denies being loyalist . She has said she has a collection of paramilitary mugs from both sides and it was accidental (on her part at least) that the UFF mug ended up in the photo. She had given the journalist tea and wasn’t aware of the mug being in the photo she says.

She says that now because she's been called out on it. It might even effect book sales. I remember what she said back in the day. It was quite shocking - it was at a time when anyone suspected being an IRA sympathiser was barred from broadcasting (rightly imo) and there she was, expressing sympathy with and admiration for the worst of the worst. I didn't like Margaret Anne and see no reason to think that changing her name meant a change of heart.

It's noteworthy that she has never backed up her claim of having paramilitary mugs from both sides by showing off the IRA and INLA ones (I wonder do such even exist?).

Darknessandquiet · 04/01/2025 14:32

I’m not sure of the time period you mean when you say now, but the denial I read was published in 2018 @DeanElderberry. The photo was taken about five years earlier I think? I can’t know the truth of it of course, only that she does deny loyalism.

I also didn’t know paramilitary merch was a thing. She described her mug collection as ‘comical and ludicrous’.

I disagree with the comical part.

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/lionel-shriver-i-do-not-want-to-be-told-i-m-privileged-1.3512472

DeanElderberry · 04/01/2025 14:54

By 'now' I mean post the early 2000s invention of the novelist 'Lionel Shriver' as opposed to her previous persona 'Margaret Anne Shriver', a highly partisan journalist/chat-commentator resident in Belfast in the 1980s and 90s (not sure of the exact year the transformation happened).

DrBlackbird · 04/01/2025 15:47

RoyalCorgi · 04/01/2025 12:07

The novel was published eight months ago. You can't really accuse her of writing an article to promote the novel - much more the case that the novel reflects the themes she's already preoccupied with in her non-fiction writing.

Misread the festival blurb that the book was about to be published so yes building on/continuing to focus on the theme.

Darknessandquiet · 04/01/2025 17:03

DeanElderberry · 04/01/2025 14:54

By 'now' I mean post the early 2000s invention of the novelist 'Lionel Shriver' as opposed to her previous persona 'Margaret Anne Shriver', a highly partisan journalist/chat-commentator resident in Belfast in the 1980s and 90s (not sure of the exact year the transformation happened).

Okay, thank you,
I suppose that time frame does make it less likely that the 2013 photo a pp mentioned was deliberately meant to be provocative though? At least on her part I mean.

Though who serves tea in terrorist mugs?😕

DeanElderberry · 04/01/2025 17:17

She knew exactly what those people used their bloodstained hands for, and who they used them on.

Jumborollers · 04/01/2025 17:34

teawamutu · 30/12/2024 08:24

I'd very much like to meet Lionel Shriver. I don't think she'd be comfortable company for a minute, but her absolute clarity of expression is incredible.

I have and she is as good as she writes.

Darknessandquiet · 04/01/2025 18:09

Just to correct myself - that photo was from 2010 not 2013 @DeanElderberry, sorry for the error.

TempestTost · 04/01/2025 18:51

Mila6464 · 04/01/2025 13:51

Yes, of course, the blacks and Africans want to clean hospitals. I don't believe this for one minute.

What?

There are plenty of black people who work as cleaners.

Not sure what that has to do with the price of cheese though. It's totally legal to set aside positions for particular groups in Canada.

Grammarnut · 04/01/2025 19:10

Darknessandquiet · 04/01/2025 13:21

Ireland (ROI) was very concerned about Brexit’s impact on the GFA. A hard border, which is what was being discussed and pushed for for a long time, could have been disastrous for the peace process.
The UK government seemed to completely forget, or just not care, about its obligations as a signatory of the GFA.

I hate it when prople speak about Ireland as if Irish people have no minds of their own. ‘Those using the Republic of Ireland…’ and so on.
Irish people were extremely worried about Brexit and with very good reason.

LS is unionist but denies being loyalist @Abhannmor. She has said she has a collection of paramilitary mugs from both sides and it was accidental (on her part at least) that the UFF mug ended up in the photo. She had given the journalist tea and wasn’t aware of the mug being in the photo she says.

I am also a unionist, but it is up to NI to decide whether to stay in the UK or not. Afaik, the EU has used Ireland to beat the UK with, and has tried to separate NI from the rest of the country. This does not do Ireland any favours at all.

Darknessandquiet · 04/01/2025 19:28

Grammarnut · 04/01/2025 19:10

I am also a unionist, but it is up to NI to decide whether to stay in the UK or not. Afaik, the EU has used Ireland to beat the UK with, and has tried to separate NI from the rest of the country. This does not do Ireland any favours at all.

Ireland(ROI) and the EU wanted - indeed were obliged - to maintain the terms of the GFA peace treaty. The border needed to stay open.

If NI has been separated from GB by Brexit as you claim, then that is the fault of the UK’s Brexit. It was not Ireland or the EU that wanted Brexit and NI voted against it.

Taytoface · 04/01/2025 21:17

Darknessandquiet · 04/01/2025 19:28

Ireland(ROI) and the EU wanted - indeed were obliged - to maintain the terms of the GFA peace treaty. The border needed to stay open.

If NI has been separated from GB by Brexit as you claim, then that is the fault of the UK’s Brexit. It was not Ireland or the EU that wanted Brexit and NI voted against it.

What she said. The batshittery of Brexit was voted in with zero discussion of how it would work alongside the GFA. I strongly advise that if you are a unionist, that you understand how damaging Brexit has been to the Union. The EU has been remarkably magnanimous about NI. They could have been waaaaayyyy shittier

CoteDAzur · 05/01/2025 12:44

Mila6464 · 04/01/2025 14:00

but i bet if you saw the line up of chosen candidates, there would be one ethnic minority candidate, one trans candidate etc but the rest would be middle class white students from 'educated' backgrounds.

I don't know how you can bet that except possibly for your prejudices clouding your comprehension. There is no line up. There is 1 opening for each research project or internship. Since ethnic minorities and LGBT are priority, those are the kids that get those very few positions.

I don't know how many ways I can say the same thing. If you don't believe me, ask other parents whose kids are at a top UK university for a science subject, All of us have stories to tell about our children wondering if they should maybe claim to be bisexual to get an important internship.

Grammarnut · 05/01/2025 17:21

Darknessandquiet · 04/01/2025 19:28

Ireland(ROI) and the EU wanted - indeed were obliged - to maintain the terms of the GFA peace treaty. The border needed to stay open.

If NI has been separated from GB by Brexit as you claim, then that is the fault of the UK’s Brexit. It was not Ireland or the EU that wanted Brexit and NI voted against it.

The border does not have to remain open in the EU sense, since neither ROI nor the UK are in Schengen (the process by which capitalists can acquire cheap labour from poorer EU countries and lower local wages). The ROI border with the whole UK is open because of the Common Travel Area i.e. any ROI citizen and any UK citizen can live and work and vote (some restrictions in ROI re referendums etc) in either country. The EU's position has been that goods cannot flow across this open border (the UK has no intention afaik of reneging on the CTA) but refused to consider smart borders and pre-border checks (of non-UK/ROI citizens) as are used on other EU borders. Instead, they insisted on an internal border between mainland UK and Irish UK, which is an outrage and intended to cause tension, problems and destabilization of the British Isles in general. The EU is a delightful organisation if a country cannot leave it at will without having its integral sovereignty abused.