Important article by Lionel Shriver

[FarriersGirl]

Leading article in the Times today by Lionel Shriver. She has long been a critic of woke but really doesn't pull any punches. In particular she highlights the fact that far from being progressive the era of woke has been the opposite.

www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/ditching-woke-brain-rot-transgender-pronouns-58g8dpxnp

I agree.

And, as much as they make your teeth itch or your eyes roll, society also needs contrarians to speak out as a safety valve when an authoritarian or elite social group is caught up in totalising or ideological thinking.

I know it can sounds a bit platitudinous, but I support free speech, even the speech of people I can’t stand and the speech I vehemently disagree with. Societies are stronger when ideas are expressed and allowed to be robustly challenged. We have to learn to be able to hear things we disagree with without wanting to immediately remove or restrict the rights of others to speak.

Contrarians are often the ones who stand up and say something when everyone else is just too caught up in being socially acceptable. They don't care if you think they are jerks.

But I am a bit surprised so many seem to think that race and sex identarianism are ok and fine, it's only gender identarianism that is a problem.

There is a reason the "body positivity" movement, and autism groups for parents, and the neurodiversity movement, and BLM an danti-racism, etc, have become so completely toxic across the board, and produced such ineffective political policy, and seen a huge increase in ill-feeling between differernt social groups - and it's because they have zero to do with the principles that enlivened things like the civil rights movement.

Agree with you.

I absolutely hate GC views being conflated with being anti- EDI etc.

She seems to have lost the plot.

Shriver is ID politics embodied. She identifies as British for starters. A particularly narrow and almost parodic type of British. Thinks you are doing British all wrong. Londonistan. The EU recast as a new Soviet menace. The Irish peace agreement is treason.
The fanaticism of a convert perhaps. But people don't see the Woke when conservatives do it. As Kenan Malik observes : culture wars only benefit the Right. They only serve to confuse and deflect from the whole raison d'etre of the Left , to improve the material conditions of the working class.

For someone who wrote "we need to talk about Kevin" with such skill and nuance this article is surprising for its clunky broad brushstrokes and leaps of generalisation. Won't ever buy anything of hers again - a grasp for the trumpian populist applause leaves me disappointed in someone who was once so eloquent.

Thanks Lionel. You’ve provided a cracking bit of evidence for a TRA to cite whenever they’re trying to prove what a bunch of nasty bigots we are.

ffs

Contrarians may provide a refreshing jolt of stimulation to jaded readers and listeners (I guess that's what "shock jock" means). But they're also, by definition, utterly derivative. They react to whatever progressive cultural excesses are getting the most goats. These boards here contain more brilliance, creativity and genius than a million Shrivers.
I'll be disappointed if the promised land of free expression turns out to welcome us with the words, abandon editorial standards all ye who enter here.

I gave The Times a go recently, but articles like this are why I stopped my subscription. The only thing that grinds my gears more than the fawning approach of the likes of the pro-TRA Guardian journos is the sanctimonious and hyperbolic right-wing pundit who acts as though pronouns on emails is a sign that Western society is in a state of total moral collapse, and that anything left of hard-right social Darwinism is effectively communism.

Shriver is ID politics embodied. She identifies as British for starters

but was born and educated in America and currently lives in Portugal

shes a professional contrarian who may well “identify” as British (I mean really??) but still sees everything through the politics & culture of America and seems not to notice despite living in other countries that fir example America’s race politics
are considerably different to other places

Well said. I whole heartedly agree. I'm cheered by the eloquence and sophistication of each post.

This is common-or-garden right-wing culture warrior twattery, I'm afraid. There are plenty of sensible and nuanced views on these issues from the right, but sadly not much of that on show here.

I notice the weird rightist belief that Trump Will Solve Everything cropping up. Why do these people put so much faith in this awful, incompetent man? Did left-wing identity politics go into decline during his first term? It did not (arguably the opposite). Why are these people so convinced things will turn out differently this time around?

Why has she? She wrote an article. Personally I like it, I think she’s right in many places and it’s funny that her aim to provoke has been successful. But why does that mean TRAs can “cite” her as an example of anything other than Lionel Shriver?

Who cares what TRAs think about what other think of Lionel Shriver?

" I know it can sounds a bit platitudinous, but I support free speech, even the speech of people I can’t stand and the speech I vehemently disagree with. Societies are stronger when ideas are expressed and allowed to be robustly challenged. We have to learn to be able to hear things we disagree with without wanting to immediately remove or restrict the rights of others to speak"

I don't think many posters have expressed views that the article should not have been published, nor that Shriver had no right to share her views.

It's interesting to think about the motivations of polemicists and contrarians. Some do it just to make money or to garner attention, some do it to try and drive social change, others simply enjoy being divisive. My guess is that a combination of all these motivated Shriver to write that article.

While I’ve admired her novels - So Much For That is a searing critique of the US health system - I find her extreme and rigid in her opinions as expressed in articles like this, in interviews and on the radio (e.g. Question Time).
I think she’s found a niche here where she’s courted and promoted, whereas in the US she’d just be another right wing commentator among many. I find it odd that she chooses to stay here when she quite blatantly belittles much of our societal norms. I found her views on those who opposed Brexit insulting and unpleasant.

what a bunch of nasty bigots we are

Who is this "we"?

It's an opinion piece. One woman's opinion. They might think she's a nasty bigot, and some people posting here would clearly agree with them, but do you really think anyone's going to read it and think it represents the view of all other women?

"It's an opinion piece. One woman's opinion. They might think she's a nasty bigot, and some people posting here would clearly agree with them, but do you really think anyone's going to read it and think it represents the view of all other women?"

I think some posters are raising concerns about GC viewpoints being lumped in with viewpoints that reflect intolerance to diversity. Many people with GC views consider 'trans rights' issues to be fundamentally different to rights based issues faced by other oppressed/minority views. Each time a 'big name' known to be GC lumps them together, this provides more fodder for TRAs to lay claims to GC views to be dismissed.

It is absolutely the case that one women's views does not represent anyone else's. It is also the case that the underpinning rationale for being GC differs widely. These points represent the inaccuracy of TRA claims that the GCs are all conservative and/or religious zealots.

I think some posters are raising concerns about GC viewpoints being lumped in with viewpoints that reflect intolerance to diversity

But TRAs complaining about this has been going for years, with a multitude of other candidates than Lionel Shriver, with a multitude of other perspectives, and specifically to this forum on an inordinate number of threads. It’s nothing new.

And it’s perfectly easy to combat such rants about “being aligned with [insert villain du jour]”, because it’s been done an inordinate number of times. It’s quite trite.

I don’t know why people worry about what TRAs think. Personally I give zero fucks about what TRAs think about who I “align” with. It’s funny to see them tie themselves in knots about it. GC views align with a myriad of people, what with them being grounded in material reality and all. It’s just a wasteful tactic that isn’t worth worrying about IMO.

Agree, this is one woman's opinion, much of which I disagree with, and agree she has the right to express these views.

My worry is that she gets a platform, and uses it to lump GC views in with a bunch of right wing batshittery. I am just not confident that we have enough prominent people brave enough to speak up providing the more moderate, nuanced view, so the end result is that the moderate view gets lost and it becomes really easy to say that anyone with GC views must be racist/bigoted etc.

I am getting braver by the day. I think we all must. It's time wimms

My worry is that she gets a platform, and uses it to lump GC views in with a bunch of right wing batshittery.

Lots of right wingers do this though. Like Trump with his "Kamala is for they/them, President Trump is for you".

The fact is that a lot of right wing people have seen through the batshittery of the genderist movement. So they'll talk about this alongside their other opinions.

It has nothing to do with left wingers, feminists and anyone else who objects to genderist batshittery. If you think it does you're suffering from the same misconceptions as the left-wingers who think that all righteous people should hold the same set of views which all go together with no room for nuance or disagreement of any sort.

Thank you, that’s exactly what I meant.

I find that article pretty nasty.

I found it an utter load of nonsense…what a load of diatribe…totally affronted!

she is beyond out of touch with how people live

I think it’s good to see it then you get the measure of someone

But TRAs can’t dismiss GC views just by railing against whichever person they find distasteful espouses them, because GC views are believing in material reality. It’s pointless.

It’s like Flat Earthers dismissing the material reality that the earth is a sphere because someone they think is nasty believes in that material reality. Is it a successful way to counter an attack on their belief system to attack the nature of the person claiming it? Of course not. And it isn’t for GC views either because TRAs know it’s their nonsensical ideology being pointed out by anyone and everyone of all persuasions.

And it’s been done to death for the last 5 years or so, and hasn’t worked, so I have no idea why people are getting worried about one article from Lionel Shriver, who is by far nowhere near the “worst” person to believe the earth is a sphere GC views.

This. BLM, SJWs, TRAs, Antifa, Palestine supporters in their kaffiyehs — all of them are fuelling a major right-wing backlash that is likely to see Reform in government here in 2029 unless checked. Trump in the US, Farage in the UK. The far-left is preparing the ground for Farage in the way Biden did for Trump.