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Original poster

Freedom of Information requests about SEEN and Mumsnet

270 replies

carpety · 29/12/2024 17:22

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/user/laura_brown_4

Dozens of requests to various public sector bodies asking about SEEN Networks and MN posts made by employees.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1hobn9b/seen_network/

"There's been discussion here previously of the Sex Equality and Equity Network (SEEN). I've been using Freedom of Information requests to investigate this group's activities, particularly in the Civil Service (where they seem to have originated), and thought people might be interested in what I've learned."

Seems that this requestor is on a mission to unmask heretics.

Laura Brown - Freedom of Information requests

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/user/laura_brown_4

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
wiffin · 29/12/2024 20:18

Whatevershallidowithmylife · 29/12/2024 18:03

I love that website its amazing what people ask - check out a search for your local council.

I just did. There are some amazing women near me!

ArabellaScott · 29/12/2024 20:18

LoobiJee · 29/12/2024 20:11

It’s only the latest one to Defra (the tenth that Defra have received) which has prompted a “no, because we’ve decided you’re vexatious” response. (And yes, I’m bored enough to have done a quick scan to count them!!)

All the others (that I’ve read) have dealt with the request according to the rules, either ‘we don’t hold the info’, or ‘digging through our files to locate the info would exceed the cost limit’, or ‘we hold the info but disclosing it would breach data protection rules’ or ‘here’s the info’.

The requester has been treated fairly, imo.

I’ll be interested to see whether Defra try to hold their “no, cos: vexatious” line in the New Year. Having read the ICO’s finding on the rail company’s case, my guess is the “vexatious” argument won’t hold and Defra will have to disclose the info if doing so doesn’t breach the cost limit.

Show quote history

That's interesting. DEFRA seem to have a firm grasp of this person and their intentions.

Talkinpeace · 29/12/2024 20:23

LoobiJee · 29/12/2024 19:50

Surprisingly, the employer has provided copies of the internal bulletin board posts, but redacted names.

Presumably, that principle having been established by LB’s FOI request, anyone could now ask for copies of the a:gender network’s posts about SEEN.

Show quote history

Funny that.
The FOI rules preclude giving out individual data
and / or breaching employment contracts

When I had a Hampshire County Council login, the staff bulletin board was a free for all - HCC would have given short shrift to external requests

YesterdaysFuture · 29/12/2024 20:42

I would've thought that most of these requests would've breached UK GDPR by giving out identifiable information. No wonder they have been declined.

SinnerBoy · 29/12/2024 20:57

MilitantFawcett · Today 18:52

(I presume they hoped to uncover hate-filled anti-trans rants) they had to keep going.

Yes, probably classing posts pointing out the violent and sexual offences of SJ Baker, Isla Bryson etc as hate filled transphobia. The nucking futter.

DrBlackbird · 29/12/2024 20:57

Agree that many requests break GDPR. So many requests. Slight male-like pattern. Such tenaciousness is laudable. Not saying that women aren’t tenacious. Just usually on more important matters.

LoobiJee · 29/12/2024 21:00

BettyBooper · 29/12/2024 20:08

And there's this

Crikey, I’ve just read that response. The employer has disclosed the name of the LGBTQ champion (who wasn’t the complainant or the requester and didn’t want any action taken about the MN posts) in the email chain they’ve attached to their response.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 29/12/2024 21:06

IwantToRetire · 29/12/2024 18:01

On one level this is just so ridiculous, that I dont even want to have to think about this person, who I am sure thinks they are a true crusader.

But on the other had, mumsnet is not a proscribed organisation.

Why shouldn't employees of any number of organisation post on mumsnet.

Obviously if the employer has some agreed restrictions of the right of employees to post on public forums, I suppose you could request how the employer monitors that.

But I do think the inference (which some employers have accepted as being valid) that somehow it is crossing the line to post on mumsnet should be bought to the attention of @MNHQ.

ie it is not only the asking of the question, but it being taken as credible to do that, infers that posting on mumsnet is some sort of act of treason.

The MNHQ tag doesn't do anything. If you want to let MN know, you need to either report your post or start a thread in Site Stuff.

PermanentTemporary · 29/12/2024 21:13

With allies like that, who needs enemies?

Oscar Wilde was wiser. The only thing worse than being talked about...

rhywlodes · 29/12/2024 21:13

This is one of the things that these 'crusaders' do. I have a near neighbour who does it on similar subjects.
I had posted their page of requests but have just deleted it as if they realise they're being talked about on Mumsnet they might self combust (although I suppose that might give them something else to think about this week).
Whoever called it 'consuming self righteousness' upthread has it about right.

Crouton19 · 29/12/2024 21:16

Surely HR departments/records are exempt? Or anything relating to any staff which might identify them? These sorts of requests seem very much outside the scope of the original intention of the FOIA.

Cailleach1 · 29/12/2024 21:19

SinnerBoy · 29/12/2024 20:57

MilitantFawcett · Today 18:52

(I presume they hoped to uncover hate-filled anti-trans rants) they had to keep going.

Yes, probably classing posts pointing out the violent and sexual offences of SJ Baker, Isla Bryson etc as hate filled transphobia. The nucking futter.

Or simply that humans cannot change sex! Can you believe anything of anyone who maintains they can?

I suppose if it weren’t for this current anti science ideology, they’d hounding those who don’t believe the earth is flat. One has to remember how irrational the ‘beliefs’ they are pushing actually are.

Talkinpeace · 29/12/2024 21:20

Crouton19 · 29/12/2024 21:16

Surely HR departments/records are exempt? Or anything relating to any staff which might identify them? These sorts of requests seem very much outside the scope of the original intention of the FOIA.

Yes and no.
Job criteria / interview panel selection / advertisement criteria are firmly in FOI land
as is advertised pay scale versus actual transparency code pay scale

key thing is that Mumsnet does not fall under the FOI in its own right

CornishPorsche · 29/12/2024 21:25

Curious that they are targeting agencies like the Rural Payments Agency.

A small one with around 2500 staff, yet there were 7 complaints of transphobia naming SEEN in 2023? That seems extremely high.

Perhaps Mx Brown has their own links to the RPA?

ArabellaScott · 29/12/2024 21:31

Googled RPA.

'As the only accredited paying agency in England, we make payments to farmers, traders and land owners. We also make payments on behalf of Natural England ...'

FlowchartRequired · 29/12/2024 21:35

The FOI requester is probably cross that farmers know that you need a male and a female of the same species if you are going to breed farm animals.

SinnerBoy · 29/12/2024 21:36

Cailleach1 · Today 21:19

Or simply that humans cannot change sex! Can you believe anything of anyone who maintains they can?

No. I mean, I made a bit of a fool of myself this morning and admitted it, but I'd like to believe I'm not a complete fool...

Hoardasurass · 29/12/2024 21:39

BettyBooper · 29/12/2024 20:07

I'm really shocked at this. One of the FOIs lists a bunch of specific MN usernames.

Which one?

Bannedontherun · 29/12/2024 21:40

rhywlodes · 29/12/2024 21:13

This is one of the things that these 'crusaders' do. I have a near neighbour who does it on similar subjects.
I had posted their page of requests but have just deleted it as if they realise they're being talked about on Mumsnet they might self combust (although I suppose that might give them something else to think about this week).
Whoever called it 'consuming self righteousness' upthread has it about right.

That is me i identify as a hedgehog so i would be grateful if you would acknowledge my sage ism.

My spines are up and my pearls are clutched and my narc is narced

SensibleSigma · 29/12/2024 21:48

The thing is, Alan Bates may have classed as a querulant complainant.

So it’s important not to be too hasty with muppets. And this chap is a muppet.

titchy · 29/12/2024 21:49

CornishPorsche · 29/12/2024 21:25

Curious that they are targeting agencies like the Rural Payments Agency.

A small one with around 2500 staff, yet there were 7 complaints of transphobia naming SEEN in 2023? That seems extremely high.

Perhaps Mx Brown has their own links to the RPA?

It looks like they were targeting all of Defra's ALBs.

WorthyTraybake · 29/12/2024 21:51

titchy · 29/12/2024 21:49

It looks like they were targeting all of Defra's ALBs.

Show quote history

A poster who is around a lot mentioned on an early SEEN thread that they work at a Defra ALB.

titchy · 29/12/2024 21:55

Elspeth Something (chair of SEEN at one of their ALBs) I believe is being taken to court with DEFRA named so assume it's someone wanting to be part of that.

Tallisker · 29/12/2024 22:06

Defra and its ALBs have a lot of people who are attracted to environmentalism and conservation, which naturally is a great thing, but they do seem to be a bit on the bonkers side politically - see the Green Party. Lots of TWAW.

BunburyInATizz · 29/12/2024 22:28

SensibleSigma · 29/12/2024 21:48

The thing is, Alan Bates may have classed as a querulant complainant.

So it’s important not to be too hasty with muppets. And this chap is a muppet.

The extensive discussion of complainants on the thread that I linked above (and below) also has this, which makes me think that Bates would not meet the threshold for 'querulant'. (The opening series of OPs in that thread is well worth reading.)

The research in this area also indicates that one of the distinguishing features of querulance is an extreme loss of focus over time that results in querulants pursuing multiple complaints at the same time and across a number of organisations as demonstrated in the charts below.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3241727-Weaponising-of-the-Complaints-Process

Weaponising of the Complaints Process | Mumsnet

What's essential is dealing with reports and complaints of any kind is discerning between a usual, a persistent and a querulant (unusually persistent)...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3241727-Weaponising-of-the-Complaints-Process