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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Hairyesterdaygonetoday · 18/12/2024 21:26

They've denied the kids who follow in my footsteps a future

A future full of internal injuries, sterility, surgery that may or may not create something with an appearance of an opposite-sex body, lifelong medicalisation with drugs that cause their organs to atrophy inside the living body ....

Thank god, if they've been denied that future.

SquirrelSoShiny · 18/12/2024 21:28

I think I applauded you @Datun basically meaning Yes! Agreed! They're all positive emojis really although the laugh could potentially go either way 😁

Yellowbananasarebetterthangreen · 18/12/2024 21:33

Im so confused by this thread. Ive never heard of Dr David Bell before - as I personally think (know!) transwomen are not women, Im gender critical etc (and also autistic/not always able to follow threads!) is David Bell someone I should like/respect or the opposite? Ta muchly.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/12/2024 22:28

Yellowbananasarebetterthangreen · 18/12/2024 21:33

Im so confused by this thread. Ive never heard of Dr David Bell before - as I personally think (know!) transwomen are not women, Im gender critical etc (and also autistic/not always able to follow threads!) is David Bell someone I should like/respect or the opposite? Ta muchly.

Here you are Yellowbananas - here's Dr Bell talking about what happened at GIDs at the Tavistock. He was one of the whistleblowers who exposed the way children - particularly autistic girls - were being gaslit by the trans lobby grouops and unprofessional medics prescribing them unevidenced puberty blockers etc. He's calm, knowledgeable and compassionate:

duc748 · 18/12/2024 23:35

He's definitely one of the good guys.

BonfireLady · 18/12/2024 23:45

ButterflyHatched · 18/12/2024 18:09

You are aware that an autism (or ADHD, or any other similar neurotype) diagnosis would have generally excluded you from treatment as a member of this cohort, right?

As in, it is literally impossible for the older stats to reflect the neurodiversity of trans people because almost no neurodiverse trans people were allowed to get a diagnosis.

You'd just get blocked from even starting the discussion from the outset. I know several people who that happened to.

Ableism and transphobia go hand in hand, always.

Show quote history

You are aware that an autism (or ADHD, or any other similar neurotype) diagnosis would have generally excluded you from treatment as a member of this cohort, right?

I assume "excluded from treatment" in this context means someone not receiving puberty blockers and/or cross sex hormones.
I should imagine/hope that anyone with autism who was struggling with sensory issues and/or their body changing during puberty would have been given treatment appropriate to their autism (e.g. Occupational Therapy to help with any body disassociation that may have resulted from this), following a differential diagnosis. Hopefully that's how things will progress now too, rather than social transition happening as a first step i.e. a differential diagnosis to work out what may be the root cause of the distress without making any changes to pronouns etc.

As in, it is literally impossible for the older stats to reflect the neurodiversity of trans people because almost no neurodiverse trans people were allowed to get a diagnosis.

A diagnosis of what? Autism-related puberty distress, linked to cognitive processing of how males and females are "supposed" to be and/or distress about their changing bodies?

You'd just get blocked from even starting the discussion from the outset. I know several people who that happened to.

If "blocked" means not socially transitioning as a first step, but instead neutrally exploring someone's distress without any presupposition that they "are trans", this is a good thing. It doesn't have to be confrontational or dismissive. For example, a counsellor could use no pronouns at all for the child, meaning that there is no affirmation of preferred pronouns but equally no use of sex-based pronouns. Instead, open questions could be asked to unpick more about how the child feels about themselves and what they are struggling with.

Ableism and transphobia go hand in hand, always.

It's not clear what either of these is in this context. It's not ableist or transphobic to understand and meet an autistic child's Speech and Language Therapy (SALT) needs. It's to be expected that autistic children may need support in this area, making sense of all the information about the difference between the sexes and how this is connected to sex-based cultural expectations and limitations. And how it feels if you don't meet those supposed "standards" (and perhaps learning that most people don't), especially if you're already feeling angry/confused/sensory issues about your body changing during puberty.

ScrollingLeaves · 18/12/2024 23:54

ButterflyHatched · 18/12/2024 11:01

That man has been responsible for the destruction of so many lives and is one of the main reasons that the UK is now decried by human rights organisations worldwide for not providing healthcare to transgender youth.

Hate hides behind kind words and a veneer of benevolence, and the way he has shamelessly weaponised the complex difficulties of vulnerable detransitioners is nothing short of chilling.

He'll get away with it, too. He and his fellow cabal of anti-trans zealots who infested our healthcare system will never face justice for the immense harms they have caused. They've denied the kids who follow in my footsteps a future and are busy doing everything in their power to isolate themselves from the consequences.

Show quote history

They've denied the kids who follow in my footsteps a future

That makes it seem as though you think like the Pied Piper.

Your footsteps are not steps to a future. You do what you feel right for you. Leave ‘kids’ alone.

SensibleSigma · 19/12/2024 00:02

@ButterflyHatched , please take this in the spirit it is intended. You don’t sound well this evening. Your anger- which I recognise from your perspective is justified- is carrying you away. Tonight you do not sound like yourself, and may need to take a breather and regain some balance.

We are all invested- we all have children we care about, trauma that makes us hyper vigilant, or relationships that have been turned upside down. We all care passionately. We all need a break sometimes.

Tonight I think you might need some self care.

ButterflyHatched · 19/12/2024 01:23

Yellowbananasarebetterthangreen · 18/12/2024 21:33

Im so confused by this thread. Ive never heard of Dr David Bell before - as I personally think (know!) transwomen are not women, Im gender critical etc (and also autistic/not always able to follow threads!) is David Bell someone I should like/respect or the opposite? Ta muchly.

He never actually treated childhood Gender Incongruence, never worked in GIDS and in fact worked on adults in a completely different department in a completely different building.

He has presented a story where a group of transphobes and conversion therapists who had infiltrated the organisation over time met with him in secret and presented their 'concerns'. In truth, these were largely historical issues from disgruntled ideologues about the more chaotic early days of the service alongside a rising tide of reactionary transphobic rhetoric - much of which was espoused by staff who had found their growing hostility toward softening cultural attitudes toward trans people and the neutrality of a 'trans outcome' to be incompatible with a service that centred a compassionate policy of epistemic justice.

A dubious doom-laden report was submitted by him to the Board of Directors,
which the trust identified as comprising a list of historical issues which had already been addressed and inciting even greater abuse toward existing staff. He was threatened with disciplinary action and then quit rather than be fired.

He has since been lionised by the reactionary press alongside two prominent conversion therapists - one of whom used to work in GIDS but left when it became clear her views weren't compatible with actually providing meaningful treatment to the children she'd been charged with helping.

You'll find most of the rhetoric surrounding GIDS is hopelessly naïve, often involving highly confused timelines that shift events and schools of thought around by whole decades at a time, and clearly focussed more toward building a sensational and spicy story that will drive headlines than it is toward accurately reflecting the true events.

Truth is often the first casualty when a hack with an agenda catches a whiff of a career-making big break.

ButterflyHatched · 19/12/2024 01:37

SensibleSigma · 19/12/2024 00:02

@ButterflyHatched , please take this in the spirit it is intended. You don’t sound well this evening. Your anger- which I recognise from your perspective is justified- is carrying you away. Tonight you do not sound like yourself, and may need to take a breather and regain some balance.

We are all invested- we all have children we care about, trauma that makes us hyper vigilant, or relationships that have been turned upside down. We all care passionately. We all need a break sometimes.

Tonight I think you might need some self care.

Thankyou for the concern. I will admit that it is incredibly, witheringly psychologically taxing to continue fighting for the future of kids who are in much the same situation I was and have had their futures cruelly torn away by what amounts to little more than ideological posturing in many cases. To do so in the face of seething hostility, page after page, day after day, for several years at this point while watching the world steadily nose dive directly into reactionary transphobic populism has definitely taken its toll.

I don't do this for fun. I could be watching the rest of Black Doves or blowing off steam with a fun boardgame or videogame, or a lovely new book - but instead I'm desperately trying to salvage some hope for the future. Because it's still worth fighting for. I'm not ready to give up.

If any of this ends up meaning that even one child gets a ray of hope where before things seemed hopeless - and they have been pretty fucking unrelentingly hopeless since 2020 at this point - then it will have been worth it.

Thankyou.

NewGreenDuck · 19/12/2024 06:57

Perhaps ' meaningful care' is dealing with the trauma so that the young person accepts that s/he is actually in the right body. Not a body destroyed by hormones and surgery. Just a thought.

Hoardasurass · 19/12/2024 08:50

ButterflyHatched · 19/12/2024 01:23

He never actually treated childhood Gender Incongruence, never worked in GIDS and in fact worked on adults in a completely different department in a completely different building.

He has presented a story where a group of transphobes and conversion therapists who had infiltrated the organisation over time met with him in secret and presented their 'concerns'. In truth, these were largely historical issues from disgruntled ideologues about the more chaotic early days of the service alongside a rising tide of reactionary transphobic rhetoric - much of which was espoused by staff who had found their growing hostility toward softening cultural attitudes toward trans people and the neutrality of a 'trans outcome' to be incompatible with a service that centred a compassionate policy of epistemic justice.

A dubious doom-laden report was submitted by him to the Board of Directors,
which the trust identified as comprising a list of historical issues which had already been addressed and inciting even greater abuse toward existing staff. He was threatened with disciplinary action and then quit rather than be fired.

He has since been lionised by the reactionary press alongside two prominent conversion therapists - one of whom used to work in GIDS but left when it became clear her views weren't compatible with actually providing meaningful treatment to the children she'd been charged with helping.

You'll find most of the rhetoric surrounding GIDS is hopelessly naïve, often involving highly confused timelines that shift events and schools of thought around by whole decades at a time, and clearly focussed more toward building a sensational and spicy story that will drive headlines than it is toward accurately reflecting the true events.

Truth is often the first casualty when a hack with an agenda catches a whiff of a career-making big break.

Show quote history

The medical professionals who were whistle-blowers are not transphobic. They were however very concerned about the homophobic jokes, statements and practices led to staff happily stating that there would soon be no gays as they were transing the gay away.
His report that was dismissed by the Tavistock board but upheld by the CQC who repeatedly gave gigs the lowest rating possible for failure to keep records, gain informed consent or give appropriate counselling or consideration to underlying mental health diagnosis.
The kera bell case further exposed the abject failure of the Tavistock behave in the best interest of their patients. It also forced Holly carmichele (then head of gids) to admit that "trans children" have a suicide rate that is the same as any other cahms patients and nowhere near the oft quoted 40% figure.
The cass review which ultimately led to the closure of the gids service at the Tavistock and the banning of puberty blockers exonerated dr bell.
Yes dr bell like many who stand up for the safeguarding of women and/or children was maliciously targeted with false allegations and accusations by tra staff and yes he retired from practice however he was eventually exonerated and given a public apology.
You are correct about the truth being the 1st victim in all of this and as usual you are the 1 being disingenuous. Watchful waiting is not transphobic or conversion therapy as I know being someone who greatly benefited from it when as an autistic abused child I suffered from body dismorphia (as gender dysphoria was correctly referred to back in the stone age's), it helped me to come to terms with my changing body and deal with the abuse I suffered. It also helped all of my group therapy cohort including the 1 person who went on to transition in adulthood who is an old school transvestite (his term) who is clear that he hasn't changed sex just the outward appearance of his body to make him feel better about it.

SensibleSigma · 19/12/2024 08:59

I’m continually shocked by the misrepresentation of the issues in some quarters. Having had a teen with a trauma history explain that the long term consequences of the drugs she was taking didn’t matter, as the life expectancy for trans people is so poor, I could cry at how toxic it is.

It feels a bit like the old narrative that being a wife and mother is the one true destiny for girls, and that they will never be fulfilled unless they have a home and some bums to clean, and a bloke to service. The anguish suffered by women who weren’t attracted to men, or failed to ‘catch’ a husband, or were infertile- being constantly told they were failing, that they’d missed out on the highest/only achievement that really counted…

We all face obstacles as we realise that our bodies and brains and circumstances constrain the future we will have. Children don’t get to be astronauts and pop stars.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/12/2024 09:05

ButterflyHatched · 19/12/2024 01:23

He never actually treated childhood Gender Incongruence, never worked in GIDS and in fact worked on adults in a completely different department in a completely different building.

He has presented a story where a group of transphobes and conversion therapists who had infiltrated the organisation over time met with him in secret and presented their 'concerns'. In truth, these were largely historical issues from disgruntled ideologues about the more chaotic early days of the service alongside a rising tide of reactionary transphobic rhetoric - much of which was espoused by staff who had found their growing hostility toward softening cultural attitudes toward trans people and the neutrality of a 'trans outcome' to be incompatible with a service that centred a compassionate policy of epistemic justice.

A dubious doom-laden report was submitted by him to the Board of Directors,
which the trust identified as comprising a list of historical issues which had already been addressed and inciting even greater abuse toward existing staff. He was threatened with disciplinary action and then quit rather than be fired.

He has since been lionised by the reactionary press alongside two prominent conversion therapists - one of whom used to work in GIDS but left when it became clear her views weren't compatible with actually providing meaningful treatment to the children she'd been charged with helping.

You'll find most of the rhetoric surrounding GIDS is hopelessly naïve, often involving highly confused timelines that shift events and schools of thought around by whole decades at a time, and clearly focussed more toward building a sensational and spicy story that will drive headlines than it is toward accurately reflecting the true events.

Truth is often the first casualty when a hack with an agenda catches a whiff of a career-making big break.

Show quote history

This nasty hate filled post is the fading roar of transactivism.
The Stonewall captured CQC found GIDs to be Inadequate.
Both the Conservative & Labour Governments have completely accepted the findings of the Cass Review despite both having been historically in thrall to transactivism.
The safeguarding lead at GIDS, Sonia Appleby, won damages from the Trust at an employment tribunal after the repeated attempts by activist staff to stop her raining safeguarding concerns about children.
GIDs is closed and the treatment of gender questioning children being moved into children's hospitals where evidence based ethical medical practice is the norm rather than the exception.
Time to Think - Hannah Barnes book is a detailed expose of the ease with which self interested transactivists were allowed to influence practice at GIDS. She highlights the ease with which the paedophile / porn scandal hit Mermaids & Gendered Intelligence groups were able to infiltrate what should have been a medical service for children to shape practice for their own niche demands.

Below is a link to an interview with Dr Bell. Maybe have a listen and consider who has children's best interests at heart ? Butterfly with the Pied Piper complex "children following in my footsteps" (remember what happened to the children led away by the Pied Piper) or Dr Bell with his thoughtful, evidenced knowledge about children:

https://www.channel4.com/news/children-have-been-very-seriously-damaged-by-nhs-gender-clinic-says-former-tavistock-staff-governor

lillylallylu · 19/12/2024 09:07

@ButterflyHatched am I correct in thinking you did go through puberty? And you're here campaigning for children to skip their puberty?

Datun · 19/12/2024 09:08

lillylallylu · 19/12/2024 09:07

@ButterflyHatched am I correct in thinking you did go through puberty? And you're here campaigning for children to skip their puberty?

...who are mostly girls

lillylallylu · 19/12/2024 09:11

and everyone except the hard of thinking understands the critical importance of puberty in the physical development of humans.

Greyskybluesky · 19/12/2024 09:26

The treatment that Hatched refers to was also 20+ years ago.
Medical science has moved on.
Many treatments that used to be provided 20+ years ago aren't provided now.
Evidence has shown that they aren't beneficial/are actively harmful.
Hatched isn't even being monitored correctly for long-term side effects, as confirmed on another thread.

Far from "cruelly tearing away the futures" of children, this scrutiny is giving them their futures back.

Greyskybluesky · 19/12/2024 09:28

a rising tide of reactionary transphobic rhetoric - much of which was espoused by staff who had found their growing hostility toward softening cultural attitudes toward trans people and the neutrality of a 'trans outcome' to be incompatible with a service that centred a compassionate policy of epistemic justice.

This is real tin foil hat stuff.

ellenback21 · 19/12/2024 09:29

Datun · 18/12/2024 17:33

What does the clapping mean? Is it well done? That's what I thought it meant, but now it looks like it's thanks?

If not, what do we do if you just want to say thanks, now?

Edited

If you hover your cursor over each one the meaning pops up

Datun · 19/12/2024 09:58

Greyskybluesky · 19/12/2024 09:26

The treatment that Hatched refers to was also 20+ years ago.
Medical science has moved on.
Many treatments that used to be provided 20+ years ago aren't provided now.
Evidence has shown that they aren't beneficial/are actively harmful.
Hatched isn't even being monitored correctly for long-term side effects, as confirmed on another thread.

Far from "cruelly tearing away the futures" of children, this scrutiny is giving them their futures back.

"Hatched isn't even being monitored correctly for long-term side effects, as confirmed on another thread."

Quite

Oh l've definitely had a whole host of health issues - they're a regular topic of discussion with my GP and l'd happily offer them if anyone ever formally approached me for a followup study.

I've a healthy dose of gallows humour regarding the sword of damocles hanging over me after 20 years of HRT, and the likelihood of life-changing implications in the decades to come.

And in the same bloody breath, claims to be...

...fighting for the future of kids who are in much the same situation I was and have had their futures cruelly torn away by what amounts to little more than ideological posturing

It's not a coincidence that Hilary Cass came to the conclusion she did about puberty blockers, after having spoken to hundreds of trans people.

Datun · 19/12/2024 10:00

ellenback21 · 19/12/2024 09:29

If you hover your cursor over each one the meaning pops up

Show quote history

Oh yes! Thank you. So the clapping does mean thanks. It's not 'well done.'

Got it.

Greyskybluesky · 19/12/2024 10:01

Datun · 19/12/2024 10:00

Oh yes! Thank you. So the clapping does mean thanks. It's not 'well done.'

Got it.

Show quote history

I'm disappointed they didn't include a "what the fuck are you on about" emoji for this board in particular

ETA: Having said that, posters aren't afraid to actually say that so it's probably not required after all!

Datun · 19/12/2024 10:02

Greyskybluesky · 19/12/2024 10:01

I'm disappointed they didn't include a "what the fuck are you on about" emoji for this board in particular

ETA: Having said that, posters aren't afraid to actually say that so it's probably not required after all!

Edited
Show quote history

Yes. I'd like to have been a fly on the wall at that meeting! I bet the implications of emojis on this board generated some intense discussion

Helleofabore · 19/12/2024 10:14

Datun · 18/12/2024 11:33

There appear to be many people with such a massively deep sunk cost in either transitioning, or transitioning their children, they are incapable of acknowledging the ideology that drives it.

What's notable, however, is the effort many will go to garner sympathy on the one hand, about what an awful life they've had, with the complete denial that their 'treatment' has had any part in it.

Which leads to the other thing I try to keep in mind. And that is if people have taken puberty blockers, it's not just their physicality that's been arrested. It's highly likely that their emotional and mental maturity will not have been unaffected.

This post needs to be repeated on every page.

Swipe left for the next trending thread