CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

[Chariothorses]

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

Oh boy, am I disappointed we’re all focussing on brain transplants when we should be funding Project Quantum Leap.

I would like an answer to the 1010 post too

ArabellaScott · Today 11:08

Forced teaming, pompous lecturing, scolding, arrogance, absurd exhortations to obey, and unpleasant insinuations. That's sure to win the hearts and minds of everyone.

It was a rip-roaring success in the American election. Sadly, not for the Democrats.

I'll run with it since you seem to be genuinely interested in the answer and you appear to be engaging in good faith.

I will assume your question involves finding myself suddenly in an entirely phenotypically male body rather than one that has only experienced a short period of exposure to low levels of endogenous testosterone and then decades of oestrogen therapy.

You mentioned 'retaining its character and memories' and talked about having a male ID which is quite a different scenario to mine, more akin to some kind of mystical ghostly possession of an existing fully grown and intact person than a hypothetical (fanciful but potentially achievable within the realms of known physical laws) body transplant. Quantum Leap rather than Ghost In The Shell.

So I'm possessing someone's body, who I'm presuming I can be confident is metaphysically 'dead' even though I can access his memories and personality and thus there's no ethical consideration about ownership etc etc, and I'm presuming similarly there are no close familial or romantic connections to avoid that entire can of worms.

I know for a fact that I am a mind that experiences gender dysphoria in a phenotypically male body. I know that this feeling gets worse over time when untreated. I know that I have absolutely no interest in interacting with society as a man while being perceived to be male, and that it will cause me great and debilitating distress if this is something forced upon me. I also know I have no interest whatsoever in pretending to be someone I'm not.

I'm going to be honest here; I'm not sure I survive more than a few months of this. That's a pretty grim state to be trapped in, especially while living with the trauma of escaping it once.

However, perhaps I'm feeling particularly masochistic and bloody-minded and decide to effectively start again in adulthood without the benefit of the treatment I fought so hard to get in my childhood.

I would alter my ID to F because it accurately reflects who I am, the journey I am on, and its destination

I would ask people to be sensitive debating my existence because I've already been on this journey once and it was horrible enough the first time. Obviously they won't listen - they didn't the first time round - but I can at least ask.

I would make use of whatever means exists to make this body as tolerable as possible.

I would be extremely careful about how I use single-sex spaces knowing that my impact on other people using them will be perceived quite differently and harm could be caused in ways that my previous body would not cause.

In having chosen to medically transition it, I would know from experience that any male social privilege this body would otherwise grant will immediately be rescinded by the patriarchy - and I would find little refuge amongst many different groups of women who are hostile to trans people. Even those who might otherwise be sympathetic are likely to be significantly less so now. There's only one community that is likely to provide refuge.

I almost certainly would not pursue sexual relationships at all - I think the dysphoric grief it would be likely to trigger would be far too distressing. I'm sure for some people it would all be a fascinating novelty but for me it would be going straight back to pure hell. Mercifully, I know that transitioning would spare me from a male sex drive at least, though it would be horrible at first. Since current waiting times to access CSH are measured in half-decades via the NHS, that's an incredibly long time to have to endure.

Gosh this is just a very sad, depressing thing to consider really in light of my existing life experiences.

I'm not working from some kind of external playbook of canned talking points.

Of course not! The very thought!

This made me sad to read even if it is a strange science fiction version of how you view your existence.

I wish the world had not been so prescriptive with its ideas of what men and women should be so that you could have just been happy to be in the body you were born with.

I feel as though all of the contentious points in this debate arise because of trans people’s need to be affirmed. Why? Why do you feel you need others validation so much?

Why would it not be enough to use gender neutral bathrooms instead of single sex? Why would sharing your born sex with sexual partners be so awful? Why is your need for the world’s recognition bigger that other people’s need to have laws that protect them from male violence? Or laws that prevent young girls from consenting to sexual experiences with trans people that they don’t fully understand?

I am sensitive to the feelings that you’re describing but are you sensitive to mine?

The studies seem to tentatively show - and my experiences certainly match this - that this isn't really anything to do with prescriptive ideas of what men and women should be. There's a much more fundamental, physical bodily incongruence at play here.

There are distinct, readily identifiable brain phenotypes for subsets of trans people, especially early-onset groups that suffer from powerful and debilitating lifelong dysphoria, that differ from those of their 'born sex'. Our brains are, quite literally, structurally different in many cases. They become even more so after exposure to CSH treatment.

Whether you contextualise those differences as 'variant maleness/femaleness', Blanchard-style 'super-homosexuality', a form of CNS-specific intersexuality/DSD, or a more postmodern identity-based interpretation of gender incongruence is in many ways a personal ideological issue - but the practical realities of living with those differences don't go away regardless of ideological framework because for some people they are all-encompassingly debilitating and their effects persist right through puberty into adulthood.

Even just revisiting this scenario is a source of immense distress - in a way that actually surprised me.

You talk about sensitivity; denying those experiences is a pretty profound epistemic injustice even if you disagree on how they are best treated. I'm glad you choose to be sensitive - thankyou.

@ButterflyHatched 02:18 I'm glad you choose to be sensitive - thankyou.

The question was are you prepared to reciprocate and show sensitivity to others? If not (and I've yet to see any evidence you do) then why not?

@ButterflyHatched do you have any references for your statement above: “There are distinct, readily identifiable brain phenotypes for subsets of trans people, especially early-onset groups that suffer from powerful and debilitating lifelong dysphoria, that differ from those of their 'born sex'. Our brains are, quite literally, structurally different in many cases. They become even more so after exposure to CSH treatment.”

Gina Rippon is a neuroscientist who wrote a book on how there is no significant difference between male and female brains. What research has emerged?

I can’t claim to understand how that would feel. All I can explain to you is how I felt as a young girl growing up.

I didn’t have a dad, just a single mum on quite a rough estate who worked all the time. As such, I spent a lot of time in precarious situations often involving older boys/men etc.

I wouldn’t even say I was abused, but every one of the sexual experiences I had as a teenager growing up was something that resulted in confusion or shame.

As a young working class black girl, with a low adult presence in my life, I now realise that I was pretty vulnerable.

I had experiences that solidified the fact I was female because of my sex. You had other experiences that shaped you growing up as a child with gender dysphoria. I’m not claiming that mine are worse but I am saying that they are different.

The experiences I had growing up are shared by many other young girls. The experience you had is shared by many other trans people. We are different.

I want you to live in a world that supports you but why should your needs trump mine? Especially given that only a handful of people experience the world like you and millions of girls grow up like I did.

Another analogy - apologies in advance!

I have a cousin who is mixed race - Jamaican mum and white dad - but she looks completely white. Blonde hair and blue eyes.

She grew up with a Caribbean culture (can cook Jamaican food, the music, the specific customs around cleanliness etc) so she is technically as Black as my other darker mixed raced cousins.

She has to explain herself a lot but she also hasn’t had the same barriers darker skinned women. She is culturally black but has white privilege. Therefore, I doubt she would insert herself into a space for black women. Why would she? She does not share their experiences and certainly wouldn’t think that her experiences (which were at times traumatic and confusing in their own ways) are more important than those of black women who need spaces to feel safe and share their experiences.

The relationship between psychiatric conditions and brain structure is bi-directional and complex. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation - the plasticity of the brain means its structure changes in line with behaviour, but behaviour can also be influenced by its structure.

I don't think there is convincing evidence to indicate a genetic or neurological basis to gender incongruence or distress. That doesn't mean that there isn't one. I am also not sure what relevance this has to most threads on this board.

Resolution to the nature/nurture debate will have little bearing on debates about sex-based rights, or in this case, deception relating to natal sex.

I can understand why people with trans identities are preoccupied with causation. I can understand wanting proof that 'it isn't a choice' to be widely understood. However, even if there is a condition whereby there is an innate reason why some males and females don't feel like they should be males or females, the issues arising on this board remain the same. Males will still be males and females females, and sex-based differences will still present the same issues. It might change the level of sympathy/ empathy extended to the plight of those who experience gender incongruence/distress, but I don't think this will change their views on deception relating to sex.

A male who withholds information about being male, when being male is significant to the context is in the wrong. There are no caveats or mitigations - it is wrong. How they feel about their sex, the measures they have/haven't taken to remove identifiers of being male, and the reasons underpinning them not wanting to be male are not relevant. Whether people are or aren't sympathetic to their plight is irrelevant to the point at hand.

I have seen no evidence either that male people with all the same symptoms of gender dysphoria, same interests etc who declare that they are female have a different brain to another male person with those same symptoms and the same interests but do not declare they are female have different brains. Before or after treatment.

Just because they have brains where there is some grouping shown, didn’t make those brains ‘female’ either. They were still in the range of ‘male’ if I remember. Certainly the studies that people have linked in the past show no very clear evidence. They controlled for some things but they didn’t do the obvious matches. Such as comparing if a male who has the same interests, who exhibits the same grouping of comorbidities, and has the same chemical treatments but didn’t declare a trans identity vs one that does.

It is a medical scandal that autistic male children who have a fear of adulthood (such as the developments that arise from puberty), who have been ostracised from society due to their neuro-divergence yet think it's the "patriarchy" are deemed good candidates for gender transition.

The lack of personal relationships (or any sort), leads to place the blame on the patriarchy, and there is a desire to remove their sex drive as that causes them to want to form relationships with the opposite sex.

Really therapists and others should focus on how to improve the interpersonal relationship skills of autistic individuals because for some reason autism just seems to stand out at the moment.

@Bex5490

I feel as though all of the contentious points in this debate arise because of trans people’s need to be affirmed. Why? Why do you feel you need others validation so much?

The alternative is the crushing realisation that they are the victim of medical and philosophical charlatans, and have devoted their life and body to a harmful and abusive ideology and encouraged others to join.

In the same situation I might feel a little comfort from that validation too.

That was a sad read, @ButterflyHatched : you clearly have a high level of disgust toward your male body (which is not necessarily shared by all transwomen, many of whom have previously fathered children and/or keep their male genitals).

I can't understand an adult wanting to alter their body, but, on libertarian grounds, I can't entirely fundamentally object, either. Where we part company is on how it affects others.

Altering your ID, concealing that you are male, telling children that changing sex is technically feasible, sneaking into refuges and onto shortlists - it's all dishonest. Unlike you, I think a lot more ruthless honesty would reduce transphobia, not increase it.

And people might even be more willing to make concessions if they didn't feel deceived and/or coerced into it. For example, I have no problem with trans-inclusive provision (of what would otherwise have been single-sex). The problem is that genuine single-sex alternatives, for people who need it, have effectively been banned. Why cannot they coexist? Why do you demand affirmation, rather than simple politeness?

The law can't force us to see a man as a woman, but nobody wants to be deceived by a simulacrum either: it's a fundamental flaw.

Wasn’t the question about having a brain being transplanted into a body of the opposite sex? Not a brain being put back into the same sexed body?

I think Butterfly asked how we would feel put into a male body, thinking we'd be horrified.

Obviously, Butterfly thinks they have a female brain.

In most sci fi, having your brain put into another body would be horrific anyway, because it would imply the original owner of the body had been killed in order make it available.

The problem is there is no therapy for autistic kids male or female. Both the school and I have been trying for years to get my asd ds help with his crippling phobias and anxiety but cahms refuses to do anything because they have deemed it as "a normal part of autism" and as such there's nothing that can be done. Well I know that this is bs as I'm autistic and with therapy I've successfully treated my phobia of bees and delt with my mild anxiety so I know quite wrong they are.
I place the blame for the number of ass kids dragged into the gender bs squarely at the door of cahms for refusing to treat all asd kids for anything other than gd and we know that they don't treat it with therapy

But surely your brain is a muscle that develops over time. Don’t trans people say they were always the sex they identify with so how does an adult brain being transplanted mirror this?

Unless trans people believe their brain was already a fully formed female brain at birth. Is a female brain a thing or does it being housed in a female body make it female?

This is confusing IMO.

I don't think one needs to trump another - I don't think framing it as an adversarial contest like that (trans women vs women) is a helpful or future-proof way of looking at how we handle discussions about how we structure society and protect those with varied needs

As the parent of an ASD boy this terrifies me. And my son age 5 routinely tells me he wants to be a girl since his baby sister was born.

He just prefers me and his sister to his (poor) dad and says he wants to be like us for various reasons. But in the next breath he says lots of other random stuff. Imagine I encouraged this.

I agree theilltemperedqueenofspacetime I think that reality and ruthless honesty about everything around trans would improve things no end for everyone.

TWAW/TMAM is the first thing that needs to go in the bin. It is a lie, it damages everyone and you cannot force people to believe it. It is no coincidence that Stonewall focussing on the 'T', TWAW and 'no debate' changed the landscape around Trans issues for the worse, for everyone. The medics who have lied to parents ('a dead daughter or a live son' etc.) should no longer be able to practice. The sugical butchers who have left a stream of fistulas, necrosis, incontinece, etc. should be struck off. The medics who still want to prescribe 'puberty blockers' to children at Tanner stage 2, should be struck off.

No more sending women to the metaphorical gulag when they know that human being cannot change sex and are brave enough to say so. Everyone, including trans people themselves should be able and willing to say this and recognise it as reality. No more calling women who need/want single sex prisons/toilets/rape centres/hospital wards/single sex imtimate care/other 'bigots, Nazis and Transphobes.' Telling the truth is not 'hate'.

Trans identifed people need support and evidence based healthcare. They need to have realistic expectations that are tethered to reality and biology. They don't need to be subjects of substandard heathcare, unrealistic medical intervensions, ideological flights of fantasy and medical experimentation that reminds me of Unit 731.

No, XXX, you are not going to be the first tranwoman to have a uterus transplant and then be the first transwoman to have an abortion (remember him everyone?).

But there are girls and women saying that having people who were born male and have the advantages associated with that in certain spaces, makes them feel disadvantaged, threatened or unsafe.

So why is that not enough to warrant the use of third spaces. I just don’t understand why your need to be seen as a real woman is more important than that need.