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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

713 replies

Chariothorses · 14/12/2024 13:29

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service

https://www.cps.gov.uk/publication/consultation-cps-guidance-deception-gender-summary-responses

OP posts:
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18
theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 19/12/2024 11:34

Helleofabore · 19/12/2024 11:30

"I'm sorry you find it difficult to say the obvious and clear answer."

There is no 'obvious and clear answer', except to maybe your '10 year old self'.

"You are likely, as technology improves, to find the next few decades quite distressing if you are having difficulty with an incredibly simple thought experiment like this one."

I don't believe I will find the next few decades distressing, however, it seems that you will continue to find the next few decades distressing because you seem to honestly believe that some body parts are plug and play and that AI will miraculously enable this.

I mean, I have been watching nearly every sci fi fantasy series and movie out there and read many of the books. And I can safely say that I will not find the next few decades distressing in the way you state. I mean, I have been waiting for a hoverboard for decades!

"Your hostility to a simple and earnest request to work through this example explains why you find the idea of early intervention blockade so deeply sacrilegious - it tests the definitions of 'male' and 'female' and forces us to consider people as more than a singular, all-encompassing and static point of origin."

And again with the hyperbole and the catastrophising.

No. I am not hostile. I HAVE worked through your 'simple and earnest request' and have been blunt in telling you that it is just as flawed and false as your 'Dudley - Berwick' analogy and you “ a constellation of statistically linked attributes - including genotype - that together match a pattern we identify as sex.” definition. Both of which you thought were useful and accurate.

"it tests the definitions of 'male' and 'female' and forces us to consider people as more than a singular, all-encompassing and static point of origin."

Just because you want it to be so, doesn't make it so.

Your suggestions don't force anything because they are not relevant and there are quite a few excellent posts on this thread as to why that is. But I will continue to say to you that 'your' definition of a female person requires to you use falsity to support your definition. Your definitions are not coherent and they fail at the first analysis.

Just because you want those definitions to be true, doesn't mean they are or will ever be.

"I think I understand you a little better now. Various comments over the years have hinted at this, but I think this confirms it. You seem to be assuming that I'm reading off a script; that I'm just repeating a 'brief' that I got elsewhere, told to me by clinicians who have drunk the Gender Ideology activism kool-aid."

And if you have finally understood this, can you then work out the next step? I wonder.

"We need to consider these kinds of thought experiments, even if you find them tedious and don't like the conclusions they inspire, because like it or not, we are going to have to break out of this 'on rails' mindset of sex as a singular, all-consuming definition tethered solely to a single chromosomal point of origin. Development does not work that way."

No. We don't need to consider these kind of thought experiments. Because they are irrelevant to the material reality - people cannot change sex, sex without a person disclosing their sex is engaging in non-consensual sex, and female people need single sex spaces away from all males above the age of 8 regardless of that male person's extreme body modifications.

"I understand that it's hard and you don't like some of the answers. I get it. I don't like some of the answers either. We have to engage with them, though, as a society."

Yeah? Nah! No thanks. You don't 'get it' and it is not because 'I don't like some of the answers either'. "We have to engage with them, though, as a society." Not in the way you demand though.

TL/DR

That whole quote above was a wheedling 'cope' statement. I think the cope part is just projection by now.

Thank you for taking that on so the rest of us didn't have to.

Hoardasurass · 19/12/2024 11:37

ButterflyHatched · 19/12/2024 10:54

Nobody else 'devised' this. I'm not working from some kind of external playbook of canned talking points. I've been considering these kinds of scenarios since I was about 10 years old because I've had to find ways to understand what I was experiencing and articulate what I needed.

I'm sorry you find it difficult to say the obvious and clear answer. You are likely, as technology improves, to find the next few decades quite distressing if you are having difficulty with an incredibly simple thought experiment like this one.

Your hostility to a simple and earnest request to work through this example explains why you find the idea of early intervention blockade so deeply sacrilegious - it tests the definitions of 'male' and 'female' and forces us to consider people as more than a singular, all-encompassing and static point of origin.

I think I understand you a little better now. Various comments over the years have hinted at this, but I think this confirms it. You seem to be assuming that I'm reading off a script; that I'm just repeating a 'brief' that I got elsewhere, told to me by clinicians who have drunk the Gender Ideology activism kool-aid.

This could not be further from the truth.

We need to consider these kinds of thought experiments, even if you find them tedious and don't like the conclusions they inspire, because like it or not, we are going to have to break out of this 'on rails' mindset of sex as a singular, all-consuming definition tethered solely to a single chromosomal point of origin. Development does not work that way.

Clinical trials of GnRH agonist treatment may well be allowed to actually happen. More people with difficult biology like me are going to exist, and some of them are never going to have been exposed to even a drop of endogenous sex hormones to inform their development.

People in this situation already exist today. Some of them, we don't define as 'transgender' at all.

We must learn to deal with this facet of reality in a compassionate fashion. We cannot refuse to answer the question.

These people exist. More will exist in future. Those definitions are not going to become more concise over time and even if you ban treatments here, we will still have to deal with visitors from overseas who interact with our justice system.

I understand that it's hard and you don't like some of the answers. I get it. I don't like some of the answers either. We have to engage with them, though, as a society.

This is such clearly delusional thinking. As has been explained by many pp none of what you are suggesting is even remotely possible or relevant to any of the discussion about sex by deception or the mengele type of experimentation on pre pubescent children that you are glorifying and advocating.
The fact that your asking the same pointless questions (which has been repeatedly answered ie you can't change sex regardless of any surgical or hormonal intentions) whilst refusing to answer any valid ones asked of you shows that you are incapable of logical thinking on this subject.
The questions you were asking yourself at age 10 and are still asking now show me that what you really needed was watchful waiting not lies and ideologically driven medical interventions.
I'm truly sorry that you didn't get the help that you needed as if you had you probably would not be still asking those same questions and wouldn't be left believing that everything and everyone that doesn't uncritically agree with your every feeling is transphobic, that must be a truly scary place to be for you. I hope that in time you come to recognise and understand that the women on this board are coming at this from a place of care, concern, child safeguarding and most of all years of experience including going through what would now be called gender dysphoria and we know how easily ww would have fallen for the snake oil peddled by the gender idealogs and everything we would have missed out on, ww want to protect children from this harm that's all. It's not hate, bigotry or transphobia that drives us.

Helleofabore · 19/12/2024 11:39

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 19/12/2024 11:34

Thank you for taking that on so the rest of us didn't have to.

I left a chunk of it because it was just on repeat.

The manipulation, the catastrophising, the hyperbole, the disconnected thinking... it is all there and so many of us have addressed it before and we will continue to do so in the future.

But there is a significant disconnect on many levels showing through all the posts over the years and it is like a crescendo lately.

Helleofabore · 19/12/2024 11:45

Bex5490 · 19/12/2024 11:17

Is it also not counterproductive to the safety of trans people for them to conceal this information and risk the potential violence of someone who feels as though they’ve been tricked?

Why would a trans person want to have sex with someone who wasn’t accepting of their identity?

If I could have sex with someone without them knowing I was black I definitely wouldn’t want to. Why would I?

"Is it also not counterproductive to the safety of trans people for them to conceal this information and risk the potential violence of someone who feels as though they’ve been tricked?"

The callous answer was along the lines of 'if someone finds out the truth, then they can simply not have sex with that person again'. I can go and find the exact quote if you like.

"Why would a trans person want to have sex with someone who wasn’t accepting of their identity?"

Why indeed! Could it be because if they didn't do this, then who would that person have sex with? The pool of potential sex partners looks incredibly small and I am sure you can guess which group would be in the majority of that pool.

Helleofabore · 19/12/2024 11:47

Apologies:

"I'm sorry you find it difficult to say the obvious and clear answer."

There is no 'obvious and clear answer' (that is based in reality), except to maybe your '10 year old self'.

Greyskybluesky · 19/12/2024 11:48

The callous answer was along the lines of 'if someone finds out the truth, then they can simply not have sex with that person again'.

Oh yes, I remember that answer. No grasp of the fact that a violation would have already taken place. Telling.

Bex5490 · 19/12/2024 12:09

Helleofabore · 19/12/2024 11:45

"Is it also not counterproductive to the safety of trans people for them to conceal this information and risk the potential violence of someone who feels as though they’ve been tricked?"

The callous answer was along the lines of 'if someone finds out the truth, then they can simply not have sex with that person again'. I can go and find the exact quote if you like.

"Why would a trans person want to have sex with someone who wasn’t accepting of their identity?"

Why indeed! Could it be because if they didn't do this, then who would that person have sex with? The pool of potential sex partners looks incredibly small and I am sure you can guess which group would be in the majority of that pool.

Wow…

So their ability to consent the second time is relevant but not the first?

And I get that about the pool but I honestly don’t think there are thousands of trans people who are convincing enough to pass in the first place…

Out of all your interactions with trans people over the years, how many have you seen that you would be convinced enough by to have sex with?

I honestly think that’s one of the biggest deceptions…

These people spend their young lives dreaming of changing sex, only to realise that no matter how much you invest in hormones, clothes, make up, face surgery, they will never ‘pass.’ All you have to do is google transgender celebrities where maybe 1 out of 15 looks convincing. And these are the people with access to millions of dollars and Hollywood surgeons. If they can’t achieve it then how can Barry from Wolverhampton?

I’m starting to think everyone is being conned…

Bex5490 · 19/12/2024 12:18

In fact, I think that’s what they should tell kids who think they are trans.

The truth - that no matter what they do to their bodies, they have about a 1 in ten thousand chance of ever actually looking enough like a biological female to ‘pass’.

ButterflyHatched · 19/12/2024 12:19

Helleofabore · 19/12/2024 11:30

"I'm sorry you find it difficult to say the obvious and clear answer."

There is no 'obvious and clear answer', except to maybe your '10 year old self'.

"You are likely, as technology improves, to find the next few decades quite distressing if you are having difficulty with an incredibly simple thought experiment like this one."

I don't believe I will find the next few decades distressing, however, it seems that you will continue to find the next few decades distressing because you seem to honestly believe that some body parts are plug and play and that AI will miraculously enable this.

I mean, I have been watching nearly every sci fi fantasy series and movie out there and read many of the books. And I can safely say that I will not find the next few decades distressing in the way you state. I mean, I have been waiting for a hoverboard for decades!

"Your hostility to a simple and earnest request to work through this example explains why you find the idea of early intervention blockade so deeply sacrilegious - it tests the definitions of 'male' and 'female' and forces us to consider people as more than a singular, all-encompassing and static point of origin."

And again with the hyperbole and the catastrophising.

No. I am not hostile. I HAVE worked through your 'simple and earnest request' and have been blunt in telling you that it is just as flawed and false as your 'Dudley - Berwick' analogy and you “ a constellation of statistically linked attributes - including genotype - that together match a pattern we identify as sex.” definition. Both of which you thought were useful and accurate.

"it tests the definitions of 'male' and 'female' and forces us to consider people as more than a singular, all-encompassing and static point of origin."

Just because you want it to be so, doesn't make it so.

Your suggestions don't force anything because they are not relevant and there are quite a few excellent posts on this thread as to why that is. But I will continue to say to you that 'your' definition of a female person requires to you use falsity to support your definition. Your definitions are not coherent and they fail at the first analysis.

Just because you want those definitions to be true, doesn't mean they are or will ever be.

"I think I understand you a little better now. Various comments over the years have hinted at this, but I think this confirms it. You seem to be assuming that I'm reading off a script; that I'm just repeating a 'brief' that I got elsewhere, told to me by clinicians who have drunk the Gender Ideology activism kool-aid."

And if you have finally understood this, can you then work out the next step? I wonder.

"We need to consider these kinds of thought experiments, even if you find them tedious and don't like the conclusions they inspire, because like it or not, we are going to have to break out of this 'on rails' mindset of sex as a singular, all-consuming definition tethered solely to a single chromosomal point of origin. Development does not work that way."

No. We don't need to consider these kind of thought experiments. Because they are irrelevant to the material reality - people cannot change sex, sex without a person disclosing their sex is engaging in non-consensual sex, and female people need single sex spaces away from all males above the age of 8 regardless of that male person's extreme body modifications.

"I understand that it's hard and you don't like some of the answers. I get it. I don't like some of the answers either. We have to engage with them, though, as a society."

Yeah? Nah! No thanks. You don't 'get it' and it is not because 'I don't like some of the answers either'. "We have to engage with them, though, as a society." Not in the way you demand though.

TL/DR

That whole quote above was a wheedling 'cope' statement. I think the cope part is just projection by now.

So the answer I think you're giving can be summarised as 'I won't answer because this scenario can't currently happen due to social/technological constraints. If I were to answer, the answer would be complicated.'

Please correct me if I'm wrong - it was a little hard to extract your meaning between the insinuations that I'm an AI-worshipping techbro living in a fantasy land, and the reiteration of ideological mantras that patently do not reflect the reality of people's actual lives.

ArabellaScott · 19/12/2024 12:22

Mate, you're talking absolute havers. Stop hassling Helle about bloody brain transplants.

Helleofabore · 19/12/2024 12:25

ButterflyHatched · 19/12/2024 12:19

So the answer I think you're giving can be summarised as 'I won't answer because this scenario can't currently happen due to social/technological constraints. If I were to answer, the answer would be complicated.'

Please correct me if I'm wrong - it was a little hard to extract your meaning between the insinuations that I'm an AI-worshipping techbro living in a fantasy land, and the reiteration of ideological mantras that patently do not reflect the reality of people's actual lives.

"Please correct me if I'm wrong - it was a little hard to extract your meaning between the insinuations that I'm an AI-worshipping techbro living in a fantasy land, and the reiteration of ideological mantras that patently do not reflect the reality of people's actual lives."

That is your very own convolutions there to reach that point. Except that mantras usually don't reflect an accurate representation of the facts.

"So the answer I think you're giving can be summarised as 'I won't answer because this scenario can't currently happen due to social/technological constraints. If I were to answer, the answer would be complicated.'"

I don't think the answer would be complicated at all. I think you are stuck in your ten year old self's cycle of the answer and think that a brain transplant is relevant to the situation being discussed. I have been bluntly clear as to why your question is irrelevant.

Brainworm · 19/12/2024 12:28

In the highly unlikely event of brain transplants being possible, it seems unlikely that the neural pathways would be configured in the same way as to retain memories and thought processes.

Also, memory and cognition are integrated with the spinal cord and peripheral nervous system, so if you swapped these, the brain would be irrevocably changed.

I am not entertaining the idea of a brain transplant being possible. What I am saying is the even if it were, it would be a completely different brain to what it was previously and even if the recipient didn't experience profound learning disabilities, it is more likely than not they would have no recollection of pre-transplant life.

There isn't a right or wrong brain or body, the brain is part of the body and each human is born with the only brain that can keep them alive.

In the case of what an individual understands to be gender related distress, if the body is healthy, the distress is originating from cognition.

In the case of deceiving someone about one's sex, in situations where sex is relevant, it is simply a case of ethics. Let others make informed decisions and don't put your interests above theirs. It's really that simple. If you like both natal sex and 'self identified sec' could be shared/disclosed. There is simply no moral reason for denying people's right to make informed decisions.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 19/12/2024 12:30

@ButterflyHatched any chance of an answer to what I asked you at 1010? I answered your hypothetical, so, fair's fair, it's your turn now.

EmpressaurusKitty · 19/12/2024 12:40

Greyskybluesky · 19/12/2024 11:48

The callous answer was along the lines of 'if someone finds out the truth, then they can simply not have sex with that person again'.

Oh yes, I remember that answer. No grasp of the fact that a violation would have already taken place. Telling.

It’s the same principle as that cyclist saying that lesbians would just have to get used to penis.

Brainworm · 19/12/2024 12:42

Leaving reality behind, my answers are the same as theilltemperedqueenofspacetime's.

My experience of being a natal woman has made me very aware of the importance of keeping male bodies out of single sex female spaces. I would work to overcome any cognitive or emotional discomfort or distress I experienced in solidarity with females. I would not expect females to compromise their safety and dignity to accommodate me.

GailBlancheViola · 19/12/2024 13:00

These people exist. More will exist in future. Those definitions are not going to become more concise over time and even if you ban treatments here, we will still have to deal with visitors from overseas who interact with our justice system.

We are well aware trans people exist.

With regard to visitors from overseas to the UK, as you are well aware Ignorance of the Law is no Defence not in any Country in the world. The young British man jailed for a year in Dubai for sex with an underage female - underage by their law - has found that out to his cost.

YesterdaysFuture · 19/12/2024 13:07

@Bex5490 We can talk about passability etc, but the fact is that there are cases, which have informed the CPS, where people have been duped.

The most current cases are of women pretending to be men and duping inexperienced young girls.

There are probably tropes of drunken men picking up trans women unbeknown to them.

But the reality is that it has happened, and the legal profession is looking into the law around it.

WomanXXWorldsOriginsofMothersofAllNations · 19/12/2024 13:22

Why is this brain transplant so very fucking binary?

I mean we have this amazing opportunity for brain transplants and Butters is coming across as a massively transphobic, enby hating, furry denying, bigot. I am so disappointed that an elder, and much respected forger of the hard road is pulling that ladder up behind him and ripping away the very safety and succour of his most marginalised tribe, and that he’s been exhorting FWR for at least the last of my lifetime of ever changing constellation data points that is my reference.

I mean, he has the opportunity to bring us all with him, but it’s nah fuck you evry much, I’ve got my Real Girls Brain, so long suckers!

I am be and reft in my horror.

Butteryscone · 19/12/2024 13:23

I know a child who didn't get oxygen to his brain for a short while because of a massive fit caused by a virus. He has had to have part of his brain removed because an area that was then damaged caused more fits and was threatening his life. With any injury to the brain, there are very often lifelong complications.

Brain transplants leading to any meaningful life can’t happen. It’s actually pretty offensive going on about it as though it ever could.

lechiffre55 · 19/12/2024 13:29

In context of this debate on a wider scale. One argument is the gendered soul essence. Some sort of magic essence that makes people either men or women.
Why don't they just transplant that?
No messy difficult biology, just transplant the magic essence.

Helleofabore · 19/12/2024 13:33

WomanXXWorldsOriginsofMothersofAllNations · 19/12/2024 13:22

Why is this brain transplant so very fucking binary?

I mean we have this amazing opportunity for brain transplants and Butters is coming across as a massively transphobic, enby hating, furry denying, bigot. I am so disappointed that an elder, and much respected forger of the hard road is pulling that ladder up behind him and ripping away the very safety and succour of his most marginalised tribe, and that he’s been exhorting FWR for at least the last of my lifetime of ever changing constellation data points that is my reference.

I mean, he has the opportunity to bring us all with him, but it’s nah fuck you evry much, I’ve got my Real Girls Brain, so long suckers!

I am be and reft in my horror.

You are right. It may as well be, if a human brain was transplanted in X where X could be anything.

Butteryscone · 19/12/2024 13:34

These are the justifications for having sex by deception in this case because she was drugged:
The husband had given his consent for them to rape his wife; that they had not “intended” to rape her; that what they had done was not rape; that they did not have the profile of a rapist and therefore were not one. That they believed Gisèle Pelicot was only pretending to be asleep. That they had too much testosterone – that it was their body, not their brain, acting. That they too were victims of her manipulative, perverse husband.

Which ones are given for sex by deception re gender?

DeanElderberry · 19/12/2024 14:19

There is also a lot of research at the moment about the effect gut microbiota have on brain function, so moving a brain into another body would involve a lot more than just adapting to different hormonal triggers. It's a sci-fi concept that looks less possible now than when Star Trek was playing with it in the mid 60s - see also transhumanism.

YesterdaysFuture · 19/12/2024 14:23

What I find interesting about the topic of brain transplants is that the individual who raised it is trans and their therapist (I assume) signed off on treatment to transition even though the individual has an obsession over theoretical science fiction and the belief that this could become reality.

TWETMIRF · 19/12/2024 15:57

I guess when you have a child's brain in an adult body, it's not a leap to imagine a woman's brain in a man's body

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