CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

[Chariothorses]

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

I agree. In this specific thought experiment, Butter's brain would be put in a female body.

I don't think one needs to trump another - I don't think framing it as an adversarial contest like that (trans women vs women) is a helpful or future-proof way of looking at how we handle discussions about how we structure society and protect those with varied needs

Really? Perhaps then maybe transwomen and activists should not have demanded no debate and insisted on taking what was not theirs to take.

And I’m not trying to frame it as trans woman vs women. I’m trying to look at solutions that benefit everyone.

But it seems as though the only option trans activists are putting forward is accept trans people into all areas of the sex they identify with and that’s it. No compromise. Which is why the climate is so hostile.

I don’t have a gender identity and I am female because that’s the body I have. I have PCOS and before I was diagnosed as a young teenager I thought I was turning into a boy due to the bad hirsuitness and lack of periods. Anyway, it was a long time ago and I came to accept and even enjoy my female body, hairiness and insulin resistance included, when I realised that no one has an ideal body and I should make the best of what I’ve got.

however, if I woke up tomorrow in a male body I’d be intrigued, not horrified. I think I’d quite enjoy exploring the extra strength and different reactions in public as a manI’d also like to experience sex as a man, but at that point I’d have to acknowledge that DH may have a somewhat different perspective on this experiment. Actually thinking about it I don’t know how much of my sexuality is influenced by my body versus brain and whether I’d want sex with a man or woman if I was suddenly a man. Interesting, I’ll have to think on that one.

That's exactly how it has become though. To fix it, the first thing we need to do is recognise that this is what has happened.

Things are not how they were 20 odd years ago. I cannot imagine any of the employment tribunals that have happened over the last few years happening in the early 2000, for example. Would 'Sarah' have been denied single sex group therapy at a rape crisis centre back then?

I assumed the answers would be obvious enough as to not be interesting. It would just make my life easier in multiple ways.

Sex by deception is wrong. No matter what kind of brain you believe yourself to have.

There is no excuse for not being honest with potential partners. I don't buy the unsafe one either. You'd be more vulnerable if you don't tell in advance, not less.

And I know this thread has moved on to brains etc, (again there is no evidence of Butter's argument being based in reality). But I do think it is important to come back to this fundamental point. Lying about your sex is just wrong. Lying to yourself about your sex doesn't even make you happy seemingly.

There are distinct, readily identifiable brain phenotypes for subsets of trans people, especially early-onset groups that suffer from powerful and debilitating lifelong dysphoria, that differ from those of their 'born sex'. Our brains are, quite literally, structurally different in many cases. They become even more so after exposure to CSH treatment.

Very carefully put, since we both know I'm sure, that those 'readily identifiable brain phenotypes' are still distinct from the female ones..

eg www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0666-3

I reckon that is the case. I also was waiting for the other shoe to drop and … there it was.

@ButterflyHatched

As others have engaged with your brain analogy can you answer these questions about my cousin who I described here.

Do you think my cousin is black and should be able to be in all black spaces? Take scholarships and bursaries for black women etc?

Agree.

The distraction of brains is and always has been meaningless. And has no bearing on whether it is ever acceptable to withhold the sex category of your body from a person you are about to have sex with so they can fully consent.

The brains issue is meaningless. And the ‘safety’ issue that was presented is wildly inconsistent because it is apparent that it is just as unsafe to not disclose as it would be to disclose.

None of the pivots and twists to try to present sex by deception as being ever justified support that justification. None. But let’s see, I expect another attempt will be forthcoming. Maybe not on this thread but soon.

I didn't claim they were - I'd been (rightly, I think) very dubious about research into this area ever since that BSTc study from way back in the 2000's - it seemed like a dangerously paternalistic, medicalising and essentialist way to start defining people's validity and I was deeply concerned about the temptation to start basing human rights legislation on it.

I was honestly quite surprised that research teams kept going as I thought it was going to be a pointless rabbithole without any conclusive findings.

By 2016 various different teams had, however, seemingly found a surprising weight of evidence that there are particular (pre-CSH treatment) morphologies for the brains of at least some people reporting a transgender identity from an early age.

I don't consider that evidence in any meaningful way for trans people having 'gendered souls' but rather that there do seem to be particular distinct neurological patterns that arise, as far as we can tell, from fluctuations and variations at early developmental milestones - which, like somatic intersex conditions, can have an impact on how that brain perceives itself as an embodied whole and who or what that person grows up to be.

This can lead to very significant life struggles for people so affected.

I'm certainly aware of the journey I've taken through life and what has been apparent to me from a young age. The problems and practicalities I face today are not things faced by men. I do not experience all the things that all other women experience, but anyone who knows me would find the notion that I am to be classified as a man to be completely ridiculous.

What always is clear though is the attempt to dismiss or distract from a male person knowing they are male and have been since birth, taking in all the cues of being male, being treated as being male and all that entails.

Whether it is fallacious ‘I was always female, just in a male body’ or whether it is trying to obfuscate it with language ‘been female for most of my life’ or whatever. The fact remains that those male people are male. There is no ‘nuance’ to be discussed. Everything they present is about wheedling some way to find their demands acceptable.

It is about manipulatively trying to find the right formula of sympathy, pseudoscience, science and whatever they can borrow and reapply to convince people to believe the impossible.

I think that's an extremely complex question that I have no place having an ill-informed 'take' on - it isn't my place to serve as arbiter there especially when the intersections of identity and privilege are extremely thorny.

Viewed solely from a lens of privilege within a white hegemonic society - no.

“By 2016 various different teams had, however, seemingly found a surprising weight of evidence that there are particular (pre-CSH treatment) morphologies for the brains of at least some people reporting a transgender identity from an early age.”

Which, I don’t believe were compared to people of the same sex with the same set of co-morbidities to see if it was specifically gender dysphoria that made those changes.

Just like other research where they never used a control of other male people on the same drug regimes and interests.

Yes, I have heard of this where professionals aren't interested until the magic words of "gender dysphoria" are mentioned.

We know of the massive scale of autistic children being caught up in this, and reading some of the messages here (and I'm not professional) I feel a strong sense of autism coming through and that gender transition has masked the real problems.

There is an obsession with categorisation, obsession with particular works of fiction, lack of empathy, failure to understand differing opinions etc.

I do also wonder whether a lot of this Incel business is actually autism related too, because many of the themes seem similar.

@ButterflyHatched I do not experience all the things that all other women experience, but anyone who knows me would find the notion that I am to be classified as a man to be completely ridiculous.

"All other women" is a phrase you like to repeat, post after post. Do you seriously think posters on here don't notice this sleight of language? There are no "other women" in your case.

There are countless reasons why anyone who knows you might act towards you in the way they do. You do not know what they are thinking, you are not in their heads, you do not know how they truly perceive you. You know only how you hope they perceive you.

@Helleofabore There is no ‘nuance’ to be discussed

Ok, good talk. You have made your refusal to acknowledge even the smallest hint of space for compassion within your ideology extremely clear.

I'd quite like to keep discussing with people who are interested in engaging, if that's acceptable to you?

For @ButterflyHatched I think you've made the point that you have no interest in sexual or romantic relationships, so what made you come onto a thread about sex by deception (via the hiding of physiological sex)?

Surely this won't affect you? Do you think this law will have some other negative effect for you? Or this it question you personally beliefs around gender identity and that the law doesn't see it the same way you do?

Why don’t you make your own thread about yourself then? This one was about sex by deception. Not about you.

<Applause>

There are only a maximum of 1000 posts allowed on one thread...

The exact same parallels apply to males talking about being a woman.

But do you generally see the similarities?

My cousin was raised by a black woman so a lot of her inner self is black. Her outer body doesn’t reflect that inner self but because of that juxtaposition, she can’t just decide that she’s black inside so that’s all that matters.

She has to consider the lived experience of those like myself who have been perceived since birth as black. She has to respect how they feel about her occupying space in places meant for them.

I would suggest that men should take a similar stance when transitioning into living as a woman.

Like others have said, if you want a thread all about you, go and start one.

If you don’t like people pointing out the manipulative nature of your posts, try posting without using those tactics. YOU desperately want there to be ‘nuance’, you have built a life around needing that nuance because of a decision you made.

There is no nuance around the discussion of single sex space and whether someone should disclose their sex before having sex, because people cannot change sex despite all the modifications, all the pseudoscientific theories, all the thought exercises in the world.