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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ban on puberty blockers to be made indefinite on experts’ advice

291 replies

IDareSay · 11/12/2024 13:54

Good news, just released:

“The Commission on Human Medicines (CHM) has provided independent expert advice that there is currently an unacceptable safety risk in the continued prescription of puberty blockers to children. It recommends indefinite restrictions while work is done to ensure the safety of children and young people.”

www.gov.uk/government/news/ban-on-puberty-blockers-to-be-made-indefinite-on-experts-advice

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
NotAGentleReminder · 12/12/2024 11:47

Again for anyone who is interested, Deb Cohen and Hannah Barnes' BMJ article on the 2011 study.
https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l5647

Despite the many criticisms of the study, it is frustrating that no one says it should not have been done in the first place. Why no one was shouting from the rooftops 'we do not need a clinical trial on children to prove that it is totally inappropriate to suppress normal pubertal development in response to children feeling unhappy about what sex they are' I cannot understand.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/12/2024 11:48

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 11:24

Is it only gender dysphoria that can and should be converted away into passive indifference, or are other inconvenient aspects of a person also something that should be corrected?

The goal with all other illnesses is to cure them, or if they cannot be cured, lessen them as much as possible to enable the sufferer to live a normal life.

Trans people cannot live normal lives if their determination to "live as" the opposite sex persists.

So yes, why would the goal be anything other than to help them be comfortable living as the sex they actually are?

BonfireLady · 12/12/2024 11:48

NotAGentleReminder · 12/12/2024 11:16

Long-time lurker on this board and rarely post due to burnout so apologies in advance if my replies to this are delayed/brief. But anyway, no one so far (and apologies if I have missed it and someone has pointed it out) has acknowledged that there has already been a clinical trial of puberty blockers on children - the GIDS 2011 trial that absolutely was approved by ethics committee, with the researchers knowing the likely harms when they proposed it. It was rejected by the first ethics committee but approved by a second committee which almost unbelievably was of the researchers' choosing. Despite an increase in suicidality being observed a year into the study, and before the study had even been completed, prescription of puberty blockers for 'gender' reasons was introduced as standard practice. Publication of this study was delayed by years, no positive outcomes were identified. When anyone asks about long-term follow-up of these children there are tumbleweeds. The adult clinics refused to release their data for the Cass review which could have provided useful information on long-term outcomes. Doing more trials on children where some healthy children have their normal pubertal development disrupted and endocrine disturbance induced is completely unethical as well as unnecessary as far as I'm concerned and that this was a recommendation of the Cass review is so disappointing. She even addresses children directly in the review asking them to join the studies to help those who come after. Doctors already know suppressing normal puberty (ie not precocious, ie abnormally early puberty, and they even have to be very selective and treat for the shortest time possible when managing those cases) is harmful so I really don't know how further experiments are needed to prove this is the case before the medical profession says no. It's all backwards. You don't do a study to prove an intervention you already know to be inappropriate, harmful and unethical is indeed inappropriate, harmful and unethical so that you can prove to those demanding it that it's no good so will not be available, sacrificing selected children in order to do so and telling them they are helping those coming after them. I can only hope it is rejected by ethics committee this time but have serious concerns it will go ahead.

Thank you for sharing this.

A previous trial was something I can recall having read somewhere but I had forgotten about it.

Your points are spot on and incredibly pertinent. I'm glad you delurked on the thread to share them.

NotBadConsidering · 12/12/2024 11:49

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 11:19

Do you disagree with Baroness Cass who has said on-record that:

-She hopes that for those "where there is a clear, clinical view" that the medical pathway is best will still receive that.
-She emphasised that a medical pathway, with lifetime implications and treatment, required caution but "it's really important to say that a cis outcome and a trans outcome have equal value"
-She expressed concern that her review was being weaponized to suggest that trans people do not exist, saying "that's really disappointing to me that that happens, because that's absolutely not what we're saying." She also clarified that her review was not about defining what trans means or rolling back health care, stating "There are young people who absolutely benefit from a medical pathway, and we need to make sure that those young people have access — under a research protocol, because we need to improve the research — but not assume that that's the right pathway for everyone."

Because it sounds like you do and I would like to understand your stance clearly.

She hopes that for those "where there is a clear, clinical view" that the medical pathway is best will still receive that.

I agree with her on this. Now show how it’s possible to have a clear clinical view that a medical pathway is best for a child.

She emphasised that a medical pathway, with lifetime implications and treatment, required caution but "it's really important to say that a cis outcome and a trans outcome have equal value"

It’s hard to know if I agree with her on this because I don’t know what her definition of a “trans outcome” is. Why can’t it be what I outlined above, someone who wishes they were the opposite sex but has come to terms with the fact they can’t be and has body acceptance? That’s as much “trans” as anything else.

She expressed concern that her review was being weaponized to suggest that trans people do not exist, saying "that's really disappointing to me that that happens, because that's absolutely not what we're saying."

She has also expressed concern that her review has been blatantly lied about. But if this is her view, that she thinks it being weaponised for other reasons, of course I agree with her. Her review is the most lied about, weaponised review in the last few years.

She also clarified that her review was not about defining what trans means or rolling back health care, stating "There are young people who absolutely benefit from a medical pathway, and we need to make sure that those young people have access — under a research protocol, because we need to improve the research — but not assume that that's the right pathway for everyone."

I agree with her that her review is not about rolling back health care. It’s about improving it and providing a better evidence base. I agree that there are young people who perceive that they have benefited, but I do not agree that it was the only avenue for them. They perceive they have benefited because they were lead to believe the alternative was worse, and there are people advocating the sunk cost fallacy. They’ve gone all in so they have to support it. I also think a good number of those speaking positively aren’t fully appreciative of what they’ve lost. There are a number of trans activists who list a myriad of health complications while smiling and saying “but this is the outcome I wanted!” To me, there’s dissonance.

i think Cass was pragmatic and sensible here but I do not agree with her. The harms of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones and the lack of consent means any seemingly positive outcome has been reached with significant harm and a lack of consent.

And to repeat, ad nauseam, it cannot be predicted which child, ages 10-13 or so, will be an adult who would benefit. You can’t tell us, Butters. No one can. Neither can Cass. It’s the part of the Cass Review that I don’t agree with.

But not agreeing with everything in a review is normal, you know.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/12/2024 11:51

NotAGentleReminder · 12/12/2024 11:26

For those interested, this is the investigation into the decision of the ethics committee regarding the 2011 GIDS study
https://www.hra.nhs.uk/about-us/governance/feedback-raising-concerns/investigation-study-early-pubertal-suppression-carefully-selected-group-adolescents-gender-identity-disorders/

Thank you!

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 11:55

MrBungle · 12/12/2024 11:30

Being discontent with your body, your life, your friends, everything is a fundamental part of life as true and unbreakable as the speed of light or that gravity exists - so yes. Everything.

The urge to change something because it is uncomfortable is very human - but some things - you cannot change. You, personally, ARE whatever your birth sex was. That will NEVER change. You will NEVER pass as the sex you want to be to other people, no trans people anywhere do. You don't like that, sorry, but it's still true and it's only by acceptance of the reality of the word - that life is suffering, life is short and then you die, can you get any satisfaction out of life.

Did you enjoy writing that?

I've found reality to be a lot less axiomatic than you seem to desperately wish it was.

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 11:57

NotBadConsidering · 12/12/2024 11:49

She hopes that for those "where there is a clear, clinical view" that the medical pathway is best will still receive that.

I agree with her on this. Now show how it’s possible to have a clear clinical view that a medical pathway is best for a child.

She emphasised that a medical pathway, with lifetime implications and treatment, required caution but "it's really important to say that a cis outcome and a trans outcome have equal value"

It’s hard to know if I agree with her on this because I don’t know what her definition of a “trans outcome” is. Why can’t it be what I outlined above, someone who wishes they were the opposite sex but has come to terms with the fact they can’t be and has body acceptance? That’s as much “trans” as anything else.

She expressed concern that her review was being weaponized to suggest that trans people do not exist, saying "that's really disappointing to me that that happens, because that's absolutely not what we're saying."

She has also expressed concern that her review has been blatantly lied about. But if this is her view, that she thinks it being weaponised for other reasons, of course I agree with her. Her review is the most lied about, weaponised review in the last few years.

She also clarified that her review was not about defining what trans means or rolling back health care, stating "There are young people who absolutely benefit from a medical pathway, and we need to make sure that those young people have access — under a research protocol, because we need to improve the research — but not assume that that's the right pathway for everyone."

I agree with her that her review is not about rolling back health care. It’s about improving it and providing a better evidence base. I agree that there are young people who perceive that they have benefited, but I do not agree that it was the only avenue for them. They perceive they have benefited because they were lead to believe the alternative was worse, and there are people advocating the sunk cost fallacy. They’ve gone all in so they have to support it. I also think a good number of those speaking positively aren’t fully appreciative of what they’ve lost. There are a number of trans activists who list a myriad of health complications while smiling and saying “but this is the outcome I wanted!” To me, there’s dissonance.

i think Cass was pragmatic and sensible here but I do not agree with her. The harms of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones and the lack of consent means any seemingly positive outcome has been reached with significant harm and a lack of consent.

And to repeat, ad nauseam, it cannot be predicted which child, ages 10-13 or so, will be an adult who would benefit. You can’t tell us, Butters. No one can. Neither can Cass. It’s the part of the Cass Review that I don’t agree with.

But not agreeing with everything in a review is normal, you know.

Thankyou for being honest.

BonfireLady · 12/12/2024 11:58

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 11:02

Some people choose to treat their gender dysphoria and others choose to let it fester all their lives. Sometimes it does ease, or at least get easier. Other times it reaches a crisis point. There are healthy coping strategies and there are extremely unhealthy ones as well - the same brand of virulent self-denial that leads to people unconvincingly proclaiming themselves to be Ex-Gay, for example.

There are healthy coping strategies and there are extremely unhealthy ones as well - the same brand of virulent self-denial that leads to people unconvincingly proclaiming themselves to be Ex-Gay, for example.

Agreed. For example it would be much healthier for a male (who identifes as female) who is struggling with internalised homophobia, at the thought of being gay, to find a healthy way to live and be at peace with this. Obviously if wearing dresses helps in any way with this, that's OK. Wearing a dress doesn't determine or equate to sex or sexual orientation. The unhealthy pathway is when this self-digust leads someone to believe they are no longer a gay man but are a straight woman.

Ritchie Heron talks very sensitively about exactly this scenario in relation to himself. He's compassionate about how others may feel and makes no judgement about people who have transitioned in perhaps similar circumstances. He doesn't say that they should detransition to be happy. He's just sharing his own experience.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/tk7NX7iPr9k?si=pmJkzKFhZOpiCg_i

NotBadConsidering · 12/12/2024 12:04

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 11:57

Thankyou for being honest.

You should try it sometime

MrBungle · 12/12/2024 12:25

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 11:55

Did you enjoy writing that?

I've found reality to be a lot less axiomatic than you seem to desperately wish it was.

Stop trying to be clever, you are not very good at it.

Dealing with discomfort, rather than pretending it does not exist, is a sign of a clear, conscious mind.

Please do actually deal and respond to the points I made.

Puberty blockers, are never the answer, surgery, is never the answer

Ultimately wherever YOU GO YOU will always be there and the unhappiness is deep inside YOU

If you don't deal with it, it's always going to be there.

NotBadConsidering · 12/12/2024 12:31

It doesn’t even make sense:

I've found reality to be a lot less axiomatic than you seem to desperately wish it was.

Axiomatic: self evident, unquestionable, taken for granted.

So “I’ve found reality to be a lot less self evident than you seem to desperately wish it was.”

Either Butters uses fancy words without understanding them or Butters is actually being honest for a change.

MrBungle · 12/12/2024 12:49

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/12/2024 09:48

If enough families take their children abroad for puberty blockers and surgery we might need a law similar to the FGM Act which makes it illegal to take a child abroad to have something done to their body which isn't legal in the UK.

What a very good idea

start a petition!

MalagaNights · 12/12/2024 13:30

NotAGentleReminder · 12/12/2024 11:16

Long-time lurker on this board and rarely post due to burnout so apologies in advance if my replies to this are delayed/brief. But anyway, no one so far (and apologies if I have missed it and someone has pointed it out) has acknowledged that there has already been a clinical trial of puberty blockers on children - the GIDS 2011 trial that absolutely was approved by ethics committee, with the researchers knowing the likely harms when they proposed it. It was rejected by the first ethics committee but approved by a second committee which almost unbelievably was of the researchers' choosing. Despite an increase in suicidality being observed a year into the study, and before the study had even been completed, prescription of puberty blockers for 'gender' reasons was introduced as standard practice. Publication of this study was delayed by years, no positive outcomes were identified. When anyone asks about long-term follow-up of these children there are tumbleweeds. The adult clinics refused to release their data for the Cass review which could have provided useful information on long-term outcomes. Doing more trials on children where some healthy children have their normal pubertal development disrupted and endocrine disturbance induced is completely unethical as well as unnecessary as far as I'm concerned and that this was a recommendation of the Cass review is so disappointing. She even addresses children directly in the review asking them to join the studies to help those who come after. Doctors already know suppressing normal puberty (ie not precocious, ie abnormally early puberty, and they even have to be very selective and treat for the shortest time possible when managing those cases) is harmful so I really don't know how further experiments are needed to prove this is the case before the medical profession says no. It's all backwards. You don't do a study to prove an intervention you already know to be inappropriate, harmful and unethical is indeed inappropriate, harmful and unethical so that you can prove to those demanding it that it's no good so will not be available, sacrificing selected children in order to do so and telling them they are helping those coming after them. I can only hope it is rejected by ethics committee this time but have serious concerns it will go ahead.

Great post.

A good reminder of previous failures, why the trials shouldn't go ahead, but also why the Cass review means they probably will.

SinnerBoy · 12/12/2024 14:16

NotAGentleReminder

It's all backwards. You don't do a study to prove an intervention you already know to be inappropriate, harmful and unethical is indeed inappropriate, harmful and unethical so that you can prove to those demanding it that it's no good so will not be available, sacrificing selected children in order to do so and telling them they are helping those coming after them.

I'm reasonably convinced that Dr. Cass knew that as it's such a political hot potato, that she had to be diplomatic, so that more people would accept the report. If she'd have advocated stopping PB altogether, she'd have faced massive opposition.

It seems to me that she's come to a compromise position, hopefully harming the smallest number possible, rather than having a greater number getting PB at will.

SinnerBoy · 12/12/2024 14:17

Ie, she wanted to be even handed. The evidence is so poor, that it's difficult to say one way or the other, although there is plenty of evidence from non trans users of PB.

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/12/2024 14:18

JazzyJelly · 12/12/2024 10:44

Blimey, what an increase in referrals to GIDS from that article! 15 adolescent females in 2009, to 1,071 in 2016!

Why are teen girls so unhappy with their bodies, and why do they think the solution is to appear male instead?

I suspect these girls are mainly young lesbians, and also girls on the autistic spectrum - who are naturally no-conforming with gender stereotypes......but now they are channeled onto the trans path...which provides them with a ready made explanation and accompanying narrative about why they feel as they do.

MrBungle · 12/12/2024 14:19

SinnerBoy · 12/12/2024 14:17

Ie, she wanted to be even handed. The evidence is so poor, that it's difficult to say one way or the other, although there is plenty of evidence from non trans users of PB.

Very much. Her report was even handed and now it’s been taken up wholesale it’s clear we should not be doing actual tests with drugs proven to be harmful.

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/12/2024 14:23

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 10:53

You're quite right, it was wrong to canonise someone who caused immense harm to desperate vulnerable children and whose legacy continues to do so, regardless of the pseudo-religious following they may have gained.

She's already fallen from grace anyway. Didn't go far enough, and now her words are becoming quite a shackle aren't they?

You do realise she is one of the most eminent paediatricians in the country? Her whole career has been dedicated to caring for children and adolescents.

Her study was not faith based ( nothing to do with religion); and it was methodical and rooted in standard scientific medical practice.

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/12/2024 14:26

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 11:02

Some people choose to treat their gender dysphoria and others choose to let it fester all their lives. Sometimes it does ease, or at least get easier. Other times it reaches a crisis point. There are healthy coping strategies and there are extremely unhealthy ones as well - the same brand of virulent self-denial that leads to people unconvincingly proclaiming themselves to be Ex-Gay, for example.

There are lots of women who post here, who would have - had they been a teenager today - probably taken the trans route if it had existed. Instead they struggled on and resolved their difficulties in a more healthy and natural way.

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/12/2024 14:28

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 11:09

First trans person I met was a trans guy - and that's the same for quite a few of my vintage. Media portrayals had an effect of letting people know treatment was available and that, combined with the visibility of trans women more generally and the stark realities that made apparent for treatment windows, meant male-assigned transitioners were over represented early on.

Most transitioners were men, because the male group contains a disproportionate number of autogynephilic cross dressers - for which there is no real female equivalent. Males are more highly represented in all paraphilias.

JazzyJelly · 12/12/2024 14:34

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/12/2024 14:26

There are lots of women who post here, who would have - had they been a teenager today - probably taken the trans route if it had existed. Instead they struggled on and resolved their difficulties in a more healthy and natural way.

Absolutely. I'm sure I'd have been one, as I've said previously. I'd been abused and hated my body for changing into something that men felt they had the right to. Hated periods, hated breasts, hated hips, hated pubic hair. Cut myself to ribbons and starved myself from that hatred. I was incredibly depressed. If someone had told me there was an option which would make me safe, I would have taken it like a shot.

Thankfully as an adult I can now place the blame and hatred squarely where it belongs, with the men who hurt me. I'm very glad to be a middle aged woman.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 12/12/2024 14:52

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 11:02

Some people choose to treat their gender dysphoria and others choose to let it fester all their lives. Sometimes it does ease, or at least get easier. Other times it reaches a crisis point. There are healthy coping strategies and there are extremely unhealthy ones as well - the same brand of virulent self-denial that leads to people unconvincingly proclaiming themselves to be Ex-Gay, for example.

Extremely unhealthy coping strategies: unbalancing one's endocrine system and getting crude surgery to produce non-functional mockeries of genitalia; also throwing a grenade into one's family. Self denial includes denial of one's body.

I'm willing to consider the possibility that for some all other coping strategies are even worse, and when a DSD or an endocrine imbalance is present that changes the likelihood of any particular treatment being effective, but DSDs are very rare and it is completely obvious that many people caught up in trans identity thinking have no compounding physical condition and have not been distressed about "gender identity" in childhood.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 12/12/2024 15:11

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 11:57

Thankyou for being honest.

I'm not sure what to make of that. Are you suggesting that in order to be honest the previous poster has to make a special effort? I prefer to assume that everyone is honest unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise.

BonfireLady · 12/12/2024 15:31

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 12/12/2024 15:11

I'm not sure what to make of that. Are you suggesting that in order to be honest the previous poster has to make a special effort? I prefer to assume that everyone is honest unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise.

TBF, I took this at face value from Butterfly.

The poster being referred to had made some great points that were delivered with a balance of compassion and tough love. If that landed well with Butterfly, that's great.

Social media is a weird place and a MN thread is no exception. Obviously there has been a fair bit of hyperbole and misrepresentation flying around but there has also been engagement with some of the points. I'd like to think that this is one of those.